Grip Width and Natural Point of Aim

[alma]

What affect does grip width have on natural point of aim and trigger control?

I have fairly large hands and among other things when I recently picked up a new CZ with thin aluminum grips it felt like I had to make more of a conscious effort to steer the gun to the right with my support hand to get the sights to perfectly align.

Why is it that most people who buy this gun for competition tend to purchase thin grips? I have some thicker grips on order now and in addition to getting more of my support hand on the gun I am looking forward to seeing if it helps me to naturally keep the pointed just a little bit more to the right and makes the trigger pull just a bit cleaner.

Thanks,

Alma

[Sin-ster]

On trigger control, almost nothing IMO. Barring absolutely terrible finger placement or angle of approach, your fundamentals are vastly more important than the aforementioned factors.

As to NPA, grip width alone may or may not be a huge factor. Instead, it's a matter of the whole of the pistol's ergonomics, how the user interfaces with them, and how different they are from the user's previously familiar pistol.

Personally, I'd be more concerned with how easily/naturally I could acquire a good grip at speed. From draw and mag changes alike. You can ALWAYS improve NPA, but you will never make a gun easier to grip. (You have to practice that much harder to get it nearly perfect every time.)

[Matt Griffin]

What affect does grip width have on natural point of aim and trigger control?

I have fairly large hands and among other things when I recently picked up a new CZ with thin aluminum grips it felt like I had to make more of a conscious effort to steer the gun to the right with my support hand to get the sights to perfectly align.

Why is it that most people who buy this gun for competition tend to purchase thin grips? I have some thicker grips on order now and in addition to getting more of my support hand on the gun I am looking forward to seeing if it helps me to naturally keep the pointed just a little bit more to the right and makes the trigger pull just a bit cleaner.

Thanks,

Alma

Let me rephrase that: What effect does grip fit have on NPA? A bunch. You need to figure out what width is the best fit, not the other way around. Jerry Miculek has thick, short fingers and shoots a curvy broom handle. I have medium, thin fingers and shoot a big fat ball of tape. The only question is how much the sights move when you throw that shot.

[Stan-O]

I can't say why *everyone* is getting thin grips, but I can give you my reason.

I have medium-sized palms, but short fingers. With the stock grip I cannot reach the trigger on DA without twisting my hand -- the only way to prevent that were the thin grips. I can also reach the magazine eject button with my thumb with the thin grips which was a hassle with the stock ones.

To be honest, I haven't really shot any matches with the stock grips on my CZ. Before buying the gun I've tried (as in dry-fired) a few CZs -- some of them had stock rubber grips, some had wooden grips and one had thin aluminum, so I've actually got a set of thin aluminum grips before I got my gun.

PS. AFAIK there're thick aluminum grips as well, I wouldn't be surprised if some people opt for those for durability.

[swhiteh3]

Interesting timing on this question.

I've been shooting a S&W 22A in Ruger Rimfire, and recently borrowed a Model 41 to shoot as well. The two grips could not be more different. Since I'm a little concerned with the reliability of the Model 41 (that's a different post), I've been having a tough time deciding which to shoot, and i've been doing LOTS of A/B/A/B tests, going back and forth, both live and dry firing.

The two grips could not be more different. The Model 41 grip is, as far as I know, the stock grip. Similar to this one:

MODEL 41 Grip

My 22A has the laminated target grips, like this one:

22A Target Grips

The grips could not be more different. The "Pull length" from the back of the grip at the trigger centerline height to the front face of the trigger is nearly 1/2" different (longer in the 22A). The 22A grip is much thicker, with less grip frame angle, much less texture to the grip. Also, the 22A seems to "interfere" with your trigger finger a lot more - the 41 "falls away" under your trigger finger, giving you room to work, and that's made easier by the extra bend in your finger from the short pull length. The 41 forces you to stretch your finger out more, bend the finger more closer to the tip, resulting in a poorer and more angled pull to the rear, while also touching the grip in a few places.

Because I could not get comfortable with the 22A grip, I started grinding on it. Being wood laminate, I use grinding discs, scotch-lock discs, sanding drums, and scotch-brite drums, and finishing off with 400 grit sandpaper. (Did I mention I work on race cars all day? I have plenty of air tools!) I was pleased that I could slightly reform an area, sand it out, re-oil it, and make the modification nearly disappear, so I kept going. I was limited in some areas by the thickness of the 22A grips, but I got quiter carried away in some areas, nearly poking all the way through.

Even with all the work to make it more like the Model 41 grip, I notice a big NPOA shift between the two guns. The bigger 22A grips seem to want to point differently in my hand, and I find I lock my right arm completely, and slightly unlock my left arm, forming a less symmetric stance with the 22A, and pointing naturally a little more to my left if my shoulders were square to the target. With the M41, my body seems to go straight to the symmetric both-arms-locked-out stance.

I'm open to hear other's experiences on this. I've never spent so much time analyzing grips as I have recently, because it's a lot easier to REMOVE material than it is to add it back!

[benos]

What affect does grip width have on natural point of aim?

It comes down to - you need to learn how to grip every pistol you shoot so that when your hands are extended in front of your face with a dead nuetral grip (in your Index position), the sights are perfectly aligned at the target.

"Dead nuetral" means there must not be any tension to the left, right, up, or down, in your grip.

[Sin-ster]

I'm open to hear other's experiences on this. I've never spent so much time analyzing grips as I have recently, because it's a lot easier to REMOVE material than it is to add it back!

Anyone who has ever shot a Glock and then switched to another platform (or vice versa) can understand where you're coming from. Only in those cases, it's a matter of the sights aligning too high or too low, due to the grip angle of the Glock compared to (basically) everything else on the market. (Small aside-- a lot of VERY good Glock shooters, including formers like Sevigny, attribute the extra cocking of the support hand to better recoil management on that platform...)

There are two ways to accomplish what Brian is talking about in the above post, with basically every gun you'll ever own, or even just shoot.

1) What Ghost Dog suggests-- work at it until the sights align naturally and perfectly, and your grip (or in your case overall stance) is neutral.

2) Start making modifications to the grip. (Not always a surefire solution, as it seems like you're finding out on your own...)

The first option takes time, commitment and concerted effort-- mostly in dry fire until it becomes second nature, but in live fire as well so that you can maintain that alignment and neutrality with recoil thrown into the mix.

The second option, especially for someone in your line of work and with the proper tools at their disposal, has the potential to be the shorter and easier road... Until you pick up another pistol and have to do it again. And again. And again.

Follow the first path and you'll be able to shoot basically any handgun you EVER pick up with impressive skill. The learning curve to accomplish proper alignment/grip/stance with each new firearm will be shortened, since you've mastered it for one gun already.

Follow the second path and you'll have trouble every time you take an unfamiliar pistol to the line. It may never be a problem depending on your chosen sport/shooting discipline... until you simply cannot remove more material, or find that you actually need to add some...

Quite honestly, a combination of BOTH options is almost certainly the best solution of all. Perfect technique (the greatest part of the equation) and then tune the gear to make it easier on you to accomplish with consistency, repeatability and comfort. The best Open and Limited shooters in the world grind on their grips in all sorts of different ways-- but the best Production shooters in the world aren't allowed.

[swhiteh3]

Thanks for the feedback Sin-Ster.

Actually, I tried Glocks and was never able to get comfortable with them because of that grip angle. Of course, that was before I knew the "right" way to grip a gun, so maybe I should take a seriously look at them again.

My first thought reading your post was "Sure, I know more range time would be better for me but... [insert excuse about lack of time / money here]. My competition is only a few weeks away!" Then I turned off my ego and read it again.

You're absolutely right, I need to be extra aggressive about dry fire practice this next few weeks. Of course I'm going to practice as much as I can live fire, but I need to do lots of dry-fire.

I'll continue to make small modifications to the grip as I need to, but more dry-fire time, and as much live-fire time as I can manage, is the real solution. Thanks.

[Psynapse]

I really don't enjoy thin grips. I shoot a double stack and love a thick body grip.

I have longish skinny fingers. What happens for me is my strong hand fingers wrap so far around some grips that there isn't much chance for my weak hand to get any meat on the grip. Ends up being too much skin on skin... I can work with it but I wont compete with it.

[pskys2]

Grip Width can have an effect on trigger control. Depending on your finger/hand size, too much grip will require you to rotate your grip to keep your finger on the trigger and could cause you to start pressing the side of the frame causing shots to push left. Rotating your grip can also skew your NPA.

Too thin grips can cause you to have too much finger in the trigger and can then cause loss of the fine touch needed for precise shots and in extremes can pull shots to the right.

Too thin are usually easier to work with though.

The NPA is important in attaining speed, as it allows you to focus on shooting a course versus searching for, and or aligning, your sights at each target. IF you can keep a good NPA and have your timing down your splits are quicker, your draw is quicker and your transitions are quicker because every time you look for the sights they are where you expect them to be.

One reason why higher level matches tend to have awkward positions to shoot from, as those are serious tests of a competitors NPA.