blackdragon Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 Shooters that partake in this practice,Are only cheating themselves I no it sounds korny but its true. It is pretty rampant, but if they don't want to be caught they won't. I don't worry about it, if they have to shoot minor to beat me then bring it on, most of us that have been shooting this game awhile know its not the ammo its the shooter! Yep Ivan SCS Vegas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted August 6, 2004 Author Share Posted August 6, 2004 they arent even real competitive. several mikes on every stage... as far as claiming minor and shooting major, even in a class that allows major scoring, i believe if you claim minor, you get minor i like " want ten bullets from that mag " thats funny....like anyone would cheat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 I agree that a slug in every crowd will cheat no matter what. We caught a guy picking up 2 score sheets! He would go to the bathroom and fill out his "new" one with a reasonable upgrade ie 3 more "A's" and decrease time from 16.60 to 14.54. That's enought to win at most club matches. He was a pretty good shooter. The only way we caught him was RO's testifying that it was not their writing and the time was off. HE would even try to duplicate their initials. I think he did this scam for at least a year. I haven't had a "random" ammo pull at a major in YEARS. All matches I shot said here's the bag, fill it up. I always joke and say now where is that "special" box in my bag. Kind of making a point. You can chrono one person if you want. I would do random checks. Once when I pulled a chrono stage at a local, less than 60% made major, no kidding. That was out of 45 shooters or so. I think none of them were doing it on purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 I haven't had a "random" ammo pull at a major in YEARS. All matches I shot said here's the bag, fill it up. I always joke and say now where is that "special" box in my bag. Kind of making a point. You can chrono one person if you want. I would do random checks. Once when I pulled a chrono stage at a local, less than 60% made major, no kidding. That was out of 45 shooters or so. I think none of them were doing it on purpose. Same here. Nobody is trying to catch cheaters anymore. It's only the unlucky/stupid people that were too close to the line that get caught. The real cheaters slide on by. I'd much rather a truly random sampling of 10% of the competitors than the formality we go through now. It would be easy to do at a major. Send a stats runner by each bay every so often to get scoresheets. Wait for the next shooter to get done, and grab a dropped mag. Pull 8 rounds and say 'sign here, we'll see you at chrono this afternoon'. See what happens when word of that gets around. Having a chrono at local matches is providing a valuable service to your shooters. Have one there as much as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dv8 Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 While I agree that it is unfair to other shooters, I have to say that sometimes there is no faul play involved. In my case, I never claimed shooting major, but couple of times I was scored at a local match as major by a mistake. I pointed it out, but the guys didn't seem to care much - everybody knows I am competing in Production and shooting minor. I will shoot L10 in addition to Prod when someone doesn't show up in an adjacent time slot, but for practice only. If anyone ever gets upset about the PF mistake, all they have to do is ask the match staff - they will be happy to correct it. Now, if someone knowingly declares Major while shooting Minor - that's different, and I agree that occasional chrono stage may help to reveal such things. Then again, there is not even much of advantage to this - why get used to weaker ammo? How is this going to help you at a major match when you have to use real Major ammo that you are not used to? One more thing - I wouldn't assume any ammo's PF from how it sounds. I have been shooting 147gr over VV310 for a while and it does sound weak, but when I chronoed it - it was over 133, which happens to be higher than some much louder factory ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 The best chrono stage I saw was at I think FIPT or IN state? 10 or so years ago. They would carry a chrono on a tripod around and stop people at random as they were finishing a stage. Shoot your last round, holster, set up chrono, walk over and chrono loads you just used. I know there is some error from light angle and distance but good for catching cheaters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m.e.t. Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 I am always amazed at how much work dishonest people will do to be dishonest. I always get nervous before a big match. I chrono my rounds several times just to make sure. Travel all that way, spend all of that money and shoot minor. OUCH.. And the way I shoot, minor is a very bad thing......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 One more thing - I wouldn't assume any ammo's PF from how it sounds. I have been shooting 147gr over VV310 for a while and it does sound weak, but when I chronoed it - it was over 133, which happens to be higher than some much louder factory ammo. As has been pointed out elsewhere, the old 4.X gr Clays/200 grain .40 175 PF loads sounded like damp firecrackers (ladyfingers, at that). I say (at a major match, at least) chrono everybody. The technique I saw that was the most effective was for one chrono officer to gather ammo at random out of shooters' mags. He'd grab a few shooters out of a squad, get their ammo, and disappear, then show up some time later at another stage for the same squad and do the same for the rest of the members (working off a master squadding list). Then the individually bagged ammo would be kept at the chrono stage until that squad was due there. Other matches just assign chono time by squads and you bring your own - a set up for "manipulation"...A lot less work for the chrono RO's, though, a factor if you're short staffed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 I've been following this thread and can't help thinking that all of this is a lot of work to keep honest people honest. Those who are dishonest and want to cheat can always find a way around any setup for handling ammo for the chronograph. It is expensive and futile to try to catch these people. I would suggest a random sample of say 10% of the shooters at major matches would accomplish alot and keep this effort to a minimum. I have also recently convinced myself that I can shoot as fast or faster with a well tuned 170 PF load in my SV limited gun then I can a 160 PF load. Comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnshapiro Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 Frankly, I don't think it matters a whole lot what PF I shoot. I just upped my loads cause I found they group better. As long as you are aware of your sights and what you see, the recoil is irrelevant. That said, it's amazing the lengths that folks go to cheat. It doesn't seem to me to be worth the effort, or the results Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dv8 Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 I've been following this thread and can't help thinking that all of this is a lot of work to keep honest people honest. Those who are dishonest and want to cheat can always find a way around any setup for handling ammo for the chronograph. It is expensive and futile to try to catch these people. I would suggest a random sample of say 10% of the shooters at major matches would accomplish alot and keep this effort to a minimum. I have also recently convinced myself that I can shoot as fast or faster with a well tuned 170 PF load in my SV limited gun then I can a 160 PF load. Comments? Makes sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 In reading this thread, it reminded me of This One. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted August 7, 2004 Share Posted August 7, 2004 When I ran the NM sectional a few years back I used dice to randomly select shooters for chrono, Every time I went into the stat shack I would roll the dice and my wife would tell me who my shooter was, some people got it twice. Word got around pretty fast Tho- Ivan SCS Vegas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 My all-time favorite for a charity match is still "Give us $5 and tell us who you want chronoed". That was fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted August 9, 2004 Author Share Posted August 9, 2004 shred that sounds like a fun way to make some charity money... me: "i want you to chrono thatguy.." that guy: "what me?? im not even shooting the match." me: "go get a gun, well chrono it,, its for charity, damnit! " thats going to be great...we gotta try that at a match.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 Luv that idea - pay to have some elsa chrono'ed....and oh yes, he's gonna do it to you as well.... The best/easiest set-up I've seen to date is the one used in RSA. A chrono stage is set up with at least 2 RO's. During the course of the first and second day (sometimes third) the chrono RO's go around a gather ammo from the mags on the shooters belt/pre-loaded mags. These get bagged (in pre-printed baggies) and kept until the squad comes by for the chrono. Yes there is alway room for cheating (and we'll alway have A....es that cheat, but the above seemed as the least hassel with most results.... My 0.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessej Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 There some people that shoot minor but claim major at a local club. I say don't worry about it 'cause those guys will never travel far to compete with the big dogs. What really burns me is that I had my first stage win with 10.49 secs then when I go to look at the scores online someone added a 10 secs to my time which is now 20.49. WTF! There is some payback coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dv8 Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 ...What really burns me is that I had my first stage win with 10.49 secs then when I go to look at the scores online someone added a 10 secs to my time which is now 20.49. ... Ouch... Wouldn't the guys from your squad be able to confirm that you were faster than that? I'd talk to the match staff and try to correct it. One of the clubs I am shooting at, regularly puts match results up as preliminary, giving everybody an opportunity to review and request a correction if needed. I don't think it is being corrected very often, but it can be done if needed. Scoring mistakes happen - there should be a way to correct them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted August 9, 2004 Author Share Posted August 9, 2004 i think you would have been better if you were scored minor instead of major than sombody doubling you time.... I have heard of people(never seen it) whose wife keeps score, when her hubby goes up to shoot and the RO calls back 14.45 she hears 12.45 and thats what supposed to get written down. while it could happen, i dont believe that it does at our club... i have been given penalty points ( i noticed the score sheet afterwards) for a hit on a non-threat target...it was a 5 round stage, and all five rounds were where the were supposed to be, but either a hole didnt get taped, or i got a shoot through....but somehow i got a hole in hostage. .there are many reasons i dont like IDPA...im not going into them here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 I thru a bone on the table awhile back to see if anyone would chew.... Here's the idea behind my suggestion of claiming minor but shooting major as a form of sandbagging. If I wanted to remain in the shadows I would claim minor and be scored as such at local matches. This would allow me to stay in the shadows of everyone else because the score that I shot would count for less but only I would know (and those suspect ). Now, here's the kicker....my loads have not changed but its time to a major match so I claim major and my performance earns full value! Just a tidbit of gaming trivia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 I had an idea that you were going there, but still can not accept that people would that to "go home with the toaster". I have to date not witnessed a single case of cheating in IPSC and hope I never do. Yes, this kind of sandbagging is cheating to me - you are dishonest about your ability and thus not placed in the correct class...thus cheat another person in that class out of his well deserved placing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted August 15, 2004 Author Share Posted August 15, 2004 thats pretty sleek way to sandbag sterling, not many folks are gonna wanna do that....but i know folks that have a limited 40 and a limited 9 set up identical.... if i were gonna claim minor in limited, i would be using a 9mm...my glock will hold 23+1...with A hits the lower PF doesnt hurt you and you drop a second or so due to no reload(on some stages). right now with me its what you see is what you get...10 rounds, minor power(yes they are minor,, trust me) and i will always be shooting to the best of my ability on any given day. i am gonna take the cheater to school on the next steel match in my area...its gonna be fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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