rouxster Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I've been loadin .40 and 9mm for a couple of years now and I am about to get into loading .223. I know this is going to be like opening Pandora's box, but I'll ask anyway. I'm using WSF for my pistol loads. Does anyone see any issues with using that same powder for my rifle rounds? Any recommendations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retread1911 Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Don't even try WST in 223. Hodgdon makes a couple of nice powders and there are some decent military pull down available. I have intentionally left them off my post so we can have the conversation. And you can do a little more research. A couple of initial questions. 1 which reloading manual are you currently reading? Even though I have been reloading for 30 years I like buyin a new book every few years to get updated load data and see how the technology is changing. I am currently reading the 49 th edition of the Lyman manual. 2 what press are you using to load? Retread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rouxster Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 Don't even try WST in 223. Hodgdon makes a couple of nice powders and there are some decent military pull down available. I have intentionally left them off my post so we can have the conversation. And you can do a little more research. A couple of initial questions. 1 which reloading manual are you currently reading? Even though I have been reloading for 30 years I like buyin a new book every few years to get updated load data and see how the technology is changing. I am currently reading the 49 th edition of the Lyman manual. 2 what press are you using to load? Retread. I'm using the same manual and I'm loading on a 550. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PINMAN44 Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Hodgdon CFE 223 for your rifle rounds would be a great powder to start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retread1911 Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Great. I load on a 1050 so no direct experience with a 550 but I think it will do 223. Have you acquired dies and a caliber conversion yet? I am loading WC844 at 25 grains under a Montana gold 55grain bullet. I am using the CCI 41 primer as it is harder then the standard small rifle primer specifically for the AR. NOTE: pull down powders vary from lot to lot. While my current load is 25 grains the last batch was 26+ and the next one might be 24. Start low and work up looking for pressure sign and the velocity you desire. With my lot I am getting 2750 fps. Your results will vary! Another thing that is very different for bottlenecked rifle cartridges is the fact that the have to be trimmed and the crimped primer pockets have to be swaged. The prep for 223 is a pain but there are services that will do it for you at a reasonable cost. Retread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Pistol powders burn FAST. Rifle powders burn much s l o w e r. Rifles often use 10x as much powder as a pistol cartridge. If you put that much pistol powder in a rifle case, it might blow out the case and could ruin your nice rifle and face. There are as many good rifle powders as there are good pistol powders. I have read about CFE 223 but have yet to try it. Varget is very popular for a lot of rifle calibers but it doesn't flow well in many powder measures. I find that AA2230 works just fine for me and meters a lot more smoothly. YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Give Hodgdon H335 a try...it was developed as a military powder for .223 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roostershooter Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I wouldn't load pistol or shotgun powders in rifle cartridges! I know there are a few manuals that mention the data, but I wouldn't try it. Lee Reloading mentions Clays and Titegroup in their data for some .223 loads, but I wouldn't waste my time. The accuracy will be spotty, and I would only do it in a pinch. There are quite a few powders that come to mind when I think .223 or 5.56. I load and shoot around 500 rounds a month, and even more than that at Knob Creek every year. 1) IMR 8208 XBR is superior to any 223 powder on the market. It isn't temp sensitive, so the same load data will work for a guy hunting in Alaska in mid winter, and hunting boar down in Texas in late summer. Clean powder that burns great. 2) Ramshot Tac is a good powder that burns semi-clean and is accurate. Tends to be sooty at lower loads, and I've found it works best with CCI 41 primers or CCI Small Mag Rifle primers. 3) Accurate 2230 either you love it or you hate it. I found it to be too dirty, but a lot of guys love it. 4) H335 is a good powder. It's a military equivalent of WC844 if you load a lot of MILSPEC loads using their data. Although I've only used it a few times in the past 7 years it burns dirty. 5) Benchmark is a good powder and was a favorite of the old shooting communities. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahK Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Give Hodgdon H335 a try...it was developed as a military powder for .223 +1 H335 is all I use, works great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rouxster Posted July 3, 2012 Author Share Posted July 3, 2012 Where do you all get your milspec load data from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croomrider Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Where do you all get your milspec load data from? Don't worry about "milspec". Get a couple of good loading manuals and buy commercial powders that are consistent from lot to lot. I have had good luck with VV N-135 in the 223. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marv Z Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I switched from Varget to TAC and can't really tell the difference shooting. TAC meters so much better than Varget. No more powder dumped all over the machine from bridging on my 550. I like TAC so much, I bought a 8lb jug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 One thing to consider is what your load will be used for. Hunting or target? Short or long range? What twist rate is your barrel? The thing is, bullet weights vary quite a bit and some powders will work better for some things and others for others. This topic is a lot like asking what kind of car to buy before you've even decided what kind of driving you are going to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaz Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I switched from Varget to TAC and can't really tell the difference shooting. TAC meters so much better than Varget. No more powder dumped all over the machine from bridging on my 550. I like TAC so much, I bought a 8lb jug. plus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowrider Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 To me there are only 3 powders for .223. AA2230 for 55s IMR 8208 XBR for anything heavier than 55s BLC2 as a backup for everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roostershooter Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) Where do you all get your milspec load data from? There are quite a few places, but I will tell you that MilSpec will get you in trouble fast if you don't know what to look for. If you aren't used to loading for the .223/5.56 then I would stick to conventional, modern published loads. Sierra and Lyman both have published loads in their most recent reloading data books that push the envelope for 'safe' in my opinion. I do not advocate MilSpec loads in civilian firearms, so I don't keep track of the resources. Sorry. Plus, you have to keep something in mind. More powder and more pop rarely equates to most accurate! The military loads ammo way above safe specs in some cartridges because they want to get maximum penetration and distance with each round. That never equals more accurate. They'd rather spray a target with an M249 SAW and put a cloud of lead downrange. As civilians we want each bullet to hit it's intended target. See my point? Furthermore, in case you already don't know. If your barrel is chambered in .223 you CANNOT load 5.56 brass to shoot in your rifle. However, the opposite isn't true ... if you have a 5.56 chambered rifle then you CAN use .223 brass. With that being said, I've only seen a few AR-15s that have been chambered in .223 since 2004, and if memory serves me right they were Bushmaster rifles. Last but not least ... if you do get ahold of some MilSpec load data do not load .223 brass to the same specs. Also, if you are using .223 data from a reloading manual to load 5.56, ALWAYS start 1 full grain less than minimum and check for pressure signs before working up. The 5.56 has less cavity volume than the .223 and the pressures can get out of hand quickly! Sorry if I've made your head spin, but the .223/5.56 cartridge is one with a lot of 'keep in mind' type of rules. Edited July 6, 2012 by roostershooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croomrider Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Where do you all get your milspec load data from? If your barrel is chambered in .223 you CANNOT load 5.56 brass to shoot in your rifle. However, the opposite isn't true ... if you have a 5.56 chambered rifle then you CAN use .223 brass. I believe you are mistaken on this. I have chambered a few match rifles for 223/5.56mm variants and have the chamber reamer specs to compare. There is no practical difference on the chamber or reamer specs from the mouth of the case back to the breach face. The main difference is in the throat and lead area where the 5.56 has much more room, both in diameter and length. This allows the 5.56 military loading to be much hotter than what would work in a 223 or a 5.56 variant that was designed for accuracy or target use. I believe you are right in that it is not a good idea to use mil spec AMMO in a chamber with tighter specs. However, I have loaded and shot thousands of rounds of military once fired brass through the tighter chambers using appropriate loads with no ill effect. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roostershooter Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) A little self knowledge can be a dangerous thing. If you have the ability to read .pdf files. Here is a Bulletin worth reading. It was put out by ATK. The parent company of CCI/Olin/Winchester. http://le.atk.com/pdf/223VS556.pdf Quote : "The 5.56mm military cartridge fired in a 223 Rem. chamber is considered by SAAMI (Small Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) to be an unsafe ammunition combination and is listed in the “Unsafe Arms and Ammunition Combinations” Section of the SAAMI Technical Correspondent’s Handbook. It clearly states; “In firearms chambered for 223 Rem – do not use 5.56 Military cartridges.” Federal Cartridge is a member of SAAMI and supports this position." Do want you want, but I'm not going to do it. On a .223 Remington spec rifle, the leade will be 0.085”. This is the standard described by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI). The leade in a 5.56 NATO spec rifle is 0.162”, or almost double the leade of the .223 rifle. A shorter leade in a SAAMI spec rifle creates a situation where the bullet in a 5.56 NATO round, when chambered, can contact the rifling prior to being fired. By having contact with the rifling prematurely (at the moment of firing), chamber pressure can be dramatically increased, creating the danger of a ruptured case or other cartridge/gun failure. The reverse situation, a .223 Rem round in a 5.56 NATO gun, isn’t dangerous. The leade is longer, so a slight loss in velocity and accuracy may be experienced, but there is not a danger of increased pressures and subsequent catastrophic failure. How serious is the danger of firing 5.56 ammo in .223 guns? Dangerous enough that the SAAMI lists 5.56 military ammo as being not for use in .223 firearms in the technical data sheet titled “Unsafe Firearm-Ammunition Combinations.” Again, backed by official documentation here ...... http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/SAAMI_ITEM_211-Unsafe_Arms_and_Ammunition_Combinations.pdf Edited July 6, 2012 by roostershooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croomrider Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Rooster, I know that the cartidges are not interchangeable, but that is due to loading, not case dimensions. I only took exception to your statement that 5.56mm "BRASS" cannot be used in a 223. Other than adjusting for case capacity the 5.56mm brass can easily be reloaded for a 223 chamber. The data you referenced is relating to loaded cartridges, not the brass. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueOvalBandit Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 The only real difference is crimped primer pockets when using 5.56 brass. Case volumes vary depending on manufacturer not due to whether it was 5.56 or 223 brass. In some cases "5.56 brass" has more volume than comercial 223. http://www.6mmbr.com/223rem.html http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=42&t=318330 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saibot Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Please don't use pistol powder in a rifle. <----Kaboom! I've switched to XBR for all things precision and it is indeed a great powder. That being said, for 223/556 in the Practical Rifle/3Gun context I use AA2230. This is not an precision sport and I load my game ammo on a progressive (Dillon 650XL) press with the standard Dillon powder measure. The AA2230 is like little ball bearings and I find it meters better than the flake or extruded powders and as long as I keep the powder measure filled half or better it throws pretty consistently. One word of advice, see if one of the many friendly Enos members in your area who is experience with loading rifle cartridges could help you get started. There are a few nuances with rifle cartridge loading that can make or break your success at the range and having someone who has already made those mistakes will save you many headaches (and rounds that won't eject). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJones1911 Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 I use Ramshot TAC. This powder works great on all bullet weights and meters like water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HI5-O Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 I'm gonna try the Hodgdons CFE 223 powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saibot Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I haven't tried the CFE 223 yet, but did recently try the TAC to see if it performed better than the AA2230 I've been using. For my purposes I'm sticking with AA2230. I did a post about some of the comparison if you're interested. http://www.recoilsports.com/2012/09/why-you-have-to-use-a-chronograph-aa2230-vs-tac/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Unless there have been some recent changes, ATK and Olin are separate companies. ATK has CCI-Speer, RCBS, and Alliant (among others) and Olin has Winchester. Guy A little self knowledge can be a dangerous thing. If you have the ability to read .pdf files. Here is a Bulletin worth reading. It was put out by ATK. The parent company of CCI/Olin/Winchester. http://le.atk.com/pdf/223VS556.pdf Quote : "The 5.56mm military cartridge fired in a 223 Rem. chamber is considered by SAAMI (Small Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) to be an unsafe ammunition combination and is listed in the “Unsafe Arms and Ammunition Combinations” Section of the SAAMI Technical Correspondent’s Handbook. It clearly states; “In firearms chambered for 223 Rem – do not use 5.56 Military cartridges.” Federal Cartridge is a member of SAAMI and supports this position." Do want you want, but I'm not going to do it. On a .223 Remington spec rifle, the leade will be 0.085”. This is the standard described by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI). The leade in a 5.56 NATO spec rifle is 0.162”, or almost double the leade of the .223 rifle. A shorter leade in a SAAMI spec rifle creates a situation where the bullet in a 5.56 NATO round, when chambered, can contact the rifling prior to being fired. By having contact with the rifling prematurely (at the moment of firing), chamber pressure can be dramatically increased, creating the danger of a ruptured case or other cartridge/gun failure. The reverse situation, a .223 Rem round in a 5.56 NATO gun, isn’t dangerous. The leade is longer, so a slight loss in velocity and accuracy may be experienced, but there is not a danger of increased pressures and subsequent catastrophic failure. How serious is the danger of firing 5.56 ammo in .223 guns? Dangerous enough that the SAAMI lists 5.56 military ammo as being not for use in .223 firearms in the technical data sheet titled “Unsafe Firearm-Ammunition Combinations.” Again, backed by official documentation here ...... http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/SAAMI_ITEM_211-Unsafe_Arms_and_Ammunition_Combinations.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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