ncopenshooter Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I think that there were a couple of California LEO's that were arrested this last week playing fast and loose with the laws. I would be careful. They were arrested for selling guns without a FFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncopenshooter Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Send it to Rafael Esqueda at Get a Gun (Bakersfield, CA). He specialized in STI single shot conversions. He is also an active competitor. I got a used Brazos gun here on the forum and he handled everything without issue. That issue above with the police is totally different. Single Shot Exemption method is totally legit. Here's your answer. Rafael knows what he's doing and it's WELL within the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaeOne3345 Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) I never sell anything to anyone in California. In fact more than once cops try to talk me into sell them guns online to CA, I think they were undercover. Short answer is why bother selling to anyone in Cali. Beutifull State but their legislation... Oh well! I am not understanding your logic. You know that selling a gun without an FFL is bad, period. What does that have to do with law abiding persons in California who do agree to have the gun sent to an FFL? If you look up the FFL and everything is legit, what difference does it make? You are in Florida? I purchased a 2011 used from an LEO in your state. All legit. Everyone abided by the law. Perfect transaction. Edited June 11, 2012 by JaeOne3345 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandro Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I never sell anything to anyone in California. In fact more than once cops try to talk me into sell them guns online to CA, I think they were undercover. Short answer is why bother selling to anyone in Cali. Beutifull State but their legislation... Oh well! I am not understanding your logic. You know that selling a gun without an FFL is bad, period. What does that have to do with law abiding persons in California who do agree to have the gun sent to an FFL? If you look up the FFL and everything is legit, what difference does it make? You are in Florida? I purchased a 2011 used from an LEO in your state. All legit. Everyone abided by the law. Perfect transaction. Allow me to explain. The catch here is "shipping" a gun that is NOT allowed in CA. The risk for anyone doing that is too great, the consequences are very severe. I am not against anyone owing a gun "legally", but I am not taking chances with a California procecuter chasing me in FL for shipping a high cap gun that is not in the approved list. My point was, why bother? If I can sell to anyone in at least twenty or more other States without breaking the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandro Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Oh and BTW, I never ship a gun unless it is going to a FFL as required by law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpygravy Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I am not understanding your logic. You know that selling a gun without an FFL is bad, period. What does that have to do with law abiding persons in California who do agree to have the gun sent to an FFL? If you look up the FFL and everything is legit, what difference does it make? You are in Florida? I purchased a 2011 used from an LEO in your state. All legit. Everyone abided by the law. Perfect transaction. Allow me to explain. The catch here is "shipping" a gun that is NOT allowed in CA. The risk for anyone doing that is too great, the consequences are very severe. I am not against anyone owing a gun "legally", but I am not taking chances with a California procecuter chasing me in FL for shipping a high cap gun that is not in the approved list. My point was, why bother? If I can sell to anyone in at least twenty or more other States without breaking the law. Sandro - You choose not to sell/ship to a CA resident. That is your choice and I (and other CA residents) have to respect that. Jaeone3345 states (and has backed up the statement) that a CA resident may legally purchase a non-roster gun using the 100% legal SSE clause. I know a couple of guys that have done this with no issues, legal or otherwise. There is no point to arguement/debate because both viewpoints are valid and neither is wrong. For those who wish to sell a little something something to a CA resident, it can be done. All it takes, as it would for any transaction, is two parties who are willing to abide by all the (CA) rules. For those who don't wish to sell to CA resident's, as Sandro has stated, there are many other states with less restrictive rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaeOne3345 Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) Allow me to explain. The catch here is "shipping" a gun that is NOT allowed in CA. The risk for anyone doing that is too great, the consequences are very severe. I am not against anyone owing a gun "legally", but I am not taking chances with a California procecuter chasing me in FL for shipping a high cap gun that is not in the approved list. My point was, why bother? If I can sell to anyone in at least twenty or more other States without breaking the law. Why bother? Because it is perfectly legal and you want to sell something worth a few thousand dollars. The buyer just so happens to be in CA. And? You CAN ship the gun into California. The gun is not ILLEGAL in California. Who said anything about the gun not being allowed in California? If that were the case, LEO would not be exempt from the list, because the gun wouldn't be allowed into CA, period. The registration/configuration requirements are different between your average citizen and law enforcement, but the GUN itself is not illegal. We are not talking about a kilo of cocaine. Furthermore, what about a person who currently lives outside of CA and currently owns STI/SVI race guns (or any other off roster pistol) and is moving/relocating to CA? They are allowed to bring their pistols with them and register them in CA. If the guns were flat out NOT ALLOWED in CA, they wouldn't be able to transfer them. But this is not the case. Over on the calguns.net forum, numerous people ask "Hey I am moving into CA, what do I do?" They are always swarmed with "Buy all of the cool off roster shit you can afford!" (because you can simply transfer the items without doing things like single shot conversions). For an off roster handgun that is currently OUT OF STATE: There is no crime for shipping that gun into CA. You would be shipping it to a licensed FFL. That FFL can then: 1. Release the gun to a sworn peace officer with no modification necessary. 2. Configure the gun into a single shot configuration, and then release the gun to a normal citizen of the state. That citizen may then, following the written law, legally configure that gun back into its normal firing configuration. Keep in mind any LEO can order this gun while in California and have it shipped to his FFL. He will still have to go through with the 10 day wait, unless his department supplies letterhead to the FFL. Like I said before, the gun can come into the state just fine. The big issue is to who and how it is released from the FFL. That is the difference. For a an off roster handgun ALREADY in CA: FYI: I can buy an STI or any other "off roster" handgun from an LEO second hand through a private party transfer. If you acquire the gun or frame through private party transfer in CA, that means the gun is already in the CA system. That LEO can take the pistol/frame to any FFL and do the PPT transfer without any issue, AND WITHOUT having to configure it as a single shot, and sell it to anyone citizen of the state through an FFL. If the gun were not allowed in CA, I wouldn't be able to acquire off roster pistols through private party transfer, but I can. Cliffnotes: 1. Yes, you CAN ship an off roster handgun like an STI into CA as long as it goes to an FFL. 2. FFL can release the gun to LEO and exempt individuals in its normal state 3. A normal citizen who wants an off roster handgun must either: A. purchase it from CA LEO through private party transfer (no conversion needed), OR B. do the single shot exemption paperwork/conversion. Basically as long as you shipped the gun to an FFL, you are not in the wrong. It is on the FFL to make sure the gun is released to the correct person in the correct configuration. That has nothing to do with you once the gun is the possession of the FFL. The FFL would be in trouble, not you. If this were illegal, my buddies and myself would have been locked up numerous times by now. We follow the law, exactly as it is written. Until there is a written law saying that we cannot convert the gun from single shot back to semi, we are fine. Come to any of our CA matches. STI/SVI reign supreme here in CA. Only a small percentage of us are actually LEO who can get the gun in our hands without any conversion. You do the math. Please, ask user "xsniper" about his transaction with me. Luckily I explained all of this stuff to him and he was cool with it. I would never endanger anyone. Edited June 12, 2012 by JaeOne3345 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaeOne3345 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) Oh and BTW, I never ship a gun unless it is going to a FFL as required by law. If that is the case you have nothing to worry about. CA FFL can accept/possess off roster hand guns. That is how they get into the hands of exempt persons. As I said above, as long as you shipped the gun to an FFL, you are not in the wrong. It is on the FFL to make sure the gun is released to the correct person in the correct configuration. That has nothing to do with you once the gun is the possession of the FFL. The FFL would be in trouble, not you. Edited June 12, 2012 by JaeOne3345 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Allow me to explain. The catch here is "shipping" a gun that is NOT allowed in CA. The risk for anyone doing that is too great, the consequences are very severe. Uh, no they aren't. If you legally ship a gun to an FFL in CA, your liability ends there. You've complied with federal law, which is what governs interstate commerce (there's even a clause in the Constitution about it). I am not against anyone owing a gun "legally", but I am not taking chances with a California procecuter chasing me in FL for shipping a high cap gun that is not in the approved list. Except you'd have to break federal law to run afoul of state law. I get it, some people think they're making a statement by refusing to deal with Californians, others just don't want the hassle. Fine. There are those that will. I'll buy from them, just as others can sell to whomever they like. However, what I take issue with is with people that misrepresent the laws. I expect that from the CA DOJ. Their policy is FUD. Sure, they may try to make an example, but if an out-of-stater thinks they're a bigger fish than the CA FFLs that are doing OLL sales, they're sadly mistaken. And then there's the whole issue with somehow making laws apply to out-of-staters that aren't applicable to out-of-staters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 The SSE is the law we have to comply with here in CA to legally acquire certain handguns. A PITA for sure but the law is the law and we shall follow it to the letter. Just like we have this whole off list lower requirements for owning AR15 type rifles in The Golden State. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimberacp Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 +1 to JaeOne3345's suggestion to make this a Sticky thanks to JaeOne3345 for taking the time to explain this process. am sure many Calif. shooters would like to know about this process and use it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbs007 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Thank you to all the California shooters who took time in explaining what we have to abide to; and thank you very much to all who were and are willing to take the extra effort to support California shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaeOne3345 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) For anyone else who continues to doubt these guns being LEGAL to own/use in California, take a look at these For Sale threads over on our CA state forum. Because these guns have already gotten through the CA system, either through single shot exemption, someone moving into CA, being purchased through exempt persons (LEO), or being /purchased transferred through PPT/exempt persons, they are perfectly OK for any CA resident to own: http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=154129 http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=573925 http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=461534 http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=556143 http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=575018 I'll stop with those. There are more. All of these are STI/SVI guns for sale or sold, in CA, on a CA forum. How about some companies who understand the law? SV Infinity: The wonderful folks over at Infinity WILL sell you a pistol. They have a 45 acp model actually on our "safe roster." You can purchase it through speedshooters.com (another CA company that you folks buy many parts from. http://www.speedshooter.com/product_detail.cfm?ID=SV40PC&n=SV-frame-45acp-pistol-S/S-California-legal Once you purchase a 45 acp model from Infinity you can send it back in and they will convert the gun to the caliber of your choice. Since the gun already got through the CA system, you are free to convert the caliber. The serial number on the gun is still the same, therefore it does not need to go back through the registration process once Infinity is finished and sends the converted gun back. JV Dynamics We have a master smith and GM open shooter right here in sunny So Cal. www.jvdynamics.com JoJo is even listed on STI's site as their dealer for CA. http://www.stiguns.com/resources/STIDealers/ All over CA you find shooters competing with JV guns. If the guns were not allowed here, how would that be possible? Lone Wolf Another company who knows the deal is Lone Wolf.. Check this out. What are they offering for sale? http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=272599 9 inch barrels for Glocks! These are no doubt being manufactured for the Single Shot Exemption. Gen 3 Glocks are legal for sale in CA without any conversion necessary. This is because the Gen 3 series were already being produced and sold in CA before our law makers decided we needed a "safe hand gun roster." A new Gen 4 Glock is considered a new handgun, and is NOT on the safe handgun roster. In order to be exempt from the safe handgun roster you must convert the Gen 4 Glock to a single shot. Easy. Grab a 9" LW barrel, get a blue training mag that holds no rounds, and use a screw or something to fix the training mag into place (through the mag release hole). A Gen 4 Glock in its normal configuration is not on the roster but remember: Per 12133PC, certain handguns are Roster-exempt. These include: 1. Single-action Revolvers, capable of holding 5 or more rounds, with 3” minimum barrel length and 7.5” minimum overall length when assembled. 2. Single-shot Pistols, with 6” minimum barrel length, and a minimum overall length of 10.5” when assembled. The Gen4 Glock above configured with the 9 inch barrel and the zero round magazine then follows the #2 rule. I will continue to educate the masses on this issue. That is the only way we CA residents can preserve the few 2A rights we do have left. There are numerous people who are simply just wrong. I understand that the laws are confusing for someone out of state, but they can be explained. We have got to get the correct information out to the people. I think many out of state gunsmiths/sellers are losing out on a big CA market. Here is one example of a great gunsmith, who just happens to be misinformed: http://www.gansguns.com/tobuild.html Gans Guns has the words "ILLEGAL IN CALIFORNIA" on the page above. Gans builds awesome guns, no doubt. But that statement is flat out WRONG. If you don't wanna deal with CA, fine, but don't make blind statements that are just totally incorrect. Under his FAQ: "I do not build guns or install compensators for residents of California, because of CA laws." This doesn't make any sense. He states on his page, "YOU SEND THE PARTS AND I DO THE WORK. I DO NOT SELL PREBUILT GUNS, AND I DO NOT SELL PARTS." I could acquire a frame in CA through PPT (private party transfer), register it through the CA DOJ just fine. It would then be legally in my name. I could send it to him for the work and he could send it back to me. This is no different than getting a SVI CA legal model from speedshooters.com and then sending it back to Infinity for a caliber change. You CAN have a compensated pistol in CA. Thus why you can go into any CA gun store and buy a compensated Glock model. The issue in CA has to do with a threaded barrel. They don't want us to be able to thread on "evil" devices like silencers. Simply owning a threaded barrel in CA is not a crime. How it is configured in the pistol makes it legal/illegal. If the gunsmith permanently attached the brake/comp to the barrel, you are fine. You could legally use a Trubor style barrel that has the compensator/barrel assembled as one unit. No threads. Edited June 12, 2012 by JaeOne3345 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaeOne3345 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) +1 to JaeOne3345's suggestion to make this a Sticky thanks to JaeOne3345 for taking the time to explain this process. am sure many Calif. shooters would like to know about this process and use it! Thank you to all the California shooters who took time in explaining what we have to abide to; and thank you very much to all who were and are willing to take the extra effort to support California shooters. No problem, guys! I will continue to do so. Edited June 12, 2012 by JaeOne3345 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motochris Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Send it to Rafael Esqueda at Get a Gun (Bakersfield, CA). He specialized in STI single shot conversions. He is also an active competitor. I got a used Brazos gun here on the forum and he handled everything without issue. That issue above with the police is totally different. Single Shot Exemption method is totally legit. Here's your answer. Rafael knows what he's doing and it's WELL within the law. +1 for me too. Just recently picked up my "off list" SP-01 Shadow from Rafael. Painless and easy. As of right now, the cost was $125 including transfer and DOJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OperationHitFactor Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Lots of good info here. I wish I had known this before, in the future I'll do business with Cali. Now if you can give me a couple ways to bypass California taxes I might move there. They have the best burritos there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaeOne3345 Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 This blogger also touched on the issue: http://exigentcircumstance.wordpress.com/tag/sb-269/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 As an aside for those that are interested in going deeper and reading the Penal Code sections, they were changed at the beginning of this year. The sections governing weapons now begin in § 16000 and the sections governing firearms specifically begin in §23500. The new section number for the single-shot exemption (at issue here) is § 32100(: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=32001-33000&file=32100-32110 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
392heminut Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Now if you can give me a couple ways to bypass California taxes I might move there. They have the best burritos there Not a chance, those gut bombs can't compare to a good New Mexico burrito! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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