Another powder charge weirdness thread. Help!

[kcobean]

Ok, I did my research but am not finding much here in regards to my issue. Please help if you can.

I have a new to me XL650 that I just finished running 1800 rounds of 9mm on using 3.9 grains of titegroup. Everything ran perfectly and in spot checking the powder charge about every 50 rounds, the powder metering was very consistent. Then it came time to load .40S&W. I have full quick change kits for both calibers, so I pulled the 9mm toolhead/assembly off and put the assembled .40 toolhead on and got ready to go. I filled the powder hopper about 3/4 of the way, tapped the side lightly for about 30 seconds to settle the powder and started running loads through station 1 and 2 and pulling them off the plate at 3 to weigh the charges. They were ALL over the place, as in sometimes I'd get .2 grains, sometimes I'd get 6.2 or anywhere in between.

I ran at least 75 cases through the powder feed station and I can not get any consistency. So, I took the whole powder assembly apart and cleaned it by just wiping everything down REALLY well and then I put it back together. I'm still having consistency issue. Seems better but not by much. I marked the charge bar with a marker with the ram in the full down position to see if I'm getting consistent pulls and they are dead on. Anyone have ANY idea why this thing is all over the map? There is no way I could start cranking rounds out with this thing right now because I would absolutely hurt myself or someone else by blowing up my gun.

Edited April 30, 2012 by kcobean

[usmc0326]

wow, Well my first question would be if you were still using tite group. I use tite group, power pistol N320 and they all meter VERY well through my 650. My best guess if your getting that sort of spread there is an issue with the powder bar or linkage. Maybe static, but that would have to be an ass load of static.

My powder measure prep is tearing it down. Cleaning all the parts with electric parts cleaner (milder break cleaner, so don't clean the plastic cylinder with it only the cast metal parts). Then reassemble. without the powder bar linkage connected to the base. Move the powder bar full stroke manually to check to see if the problem lies in the powder measure or in the linkage setup.

I would shoot a quick video so maybe someone that has had a 650 longer might see something you may be over looking... The powder measure die height was the hardest part of the setup for me.

Cheers

[kcobean]

wow, Well my first question would be if you were still using tite group. I use tite group, power pistol N320 and they all meter VERY well through my 650. My best guess if your getting that sort of spread there is an issue with the powder bar or linkage. Maybe static, but that would have to be an ass load of static.

My powder measure prep is tearing it down. Cleaning all the parts with electric parts cleaner (milder break cleaner, so don't clean the plastic cylinder with it only the cast metal parts). Then reassemble. without the powder bar linkage connected to the base. Move the powder bar full stroke manually to check to see if the problem lies in the powder measure or in the linkage setup.

I would shoot a quick video so maybe someone that has had a 650 longer might see something you may be over looking... The powder measure die height was the hardest part of the setup for me.

Cheers

Thanks. Yep, still Titegroup. I took the whole assembly apart and cleaned it. I didn't use an electric parts cleaner, but I wiped everything down very well so that there was no residue on anything and re-assembled. The powder bar is moving normally and consistently to the same mark every time. Static did cross my mind as well but I agree with you that it would have to be a lot of it and it's so erratic and inconsistent that I just can't imagine that would be it.

I'll try to post a video this evening.

[warpspeed]

Switch out the powder drop with the other one from the 40 S&W tool head. If the problem goes away, Call Dillon and have them either troubleshoot the issue or they will send you a new one.

If it is still there, call Dillon.

[Youngeyes]

Check the return rod for adjustment, swap the powder measure (make sure it's attached properly to the die)as per warpspeed and recheck the powder die adjustment. Also, have a case in all stations when you check settings. Luck.

[Too_Slow]

You keep saying that it moves to the same mark each time. What do you mean by that? The charge bar needs to go FULL TRAVEL each time not to just some arbitrary mark. If it is just some arbitrary mark of course the throws would be all over the place.

Brian

[kcobean]

You keep saying that it moves to the same mark each time. What do you mean by that? The charge bar needs to go FULL TRAVEL each time not to just some arbitrary mark. If it is just some arbitrary mark of course the throws would be all over the place.

Brian

When you say full travel, does that mean that the end of the charge bar needs to be flush with the end of the housing at full downstroke? What I did was I used a marker to mark a line on the side of the charge bar when the ram handle is at full downstroke. That line is probably an inch from the end of the bar. Then I ran it a bunch of times to see if the bar was travelling to the same point every time and it is.

I have also been doing this with only a case in station two. While I can see bullet seat depth varying without all stations filled, would powder charge also vary like this just because of the wobble in the shell plate? I have the washer/bearing fix applied to the plate.

[Too_Slow]

Yes exactly. The charge bar has to travel its full possible stroke each time. That way you can get a reliable repeatable throw each time.

Brian

[dillon]

Also, be sure the blue wing nut at the bottom of the return rod is tight enough.Push forward on the handle, as if seating a primer,and while holding the handle forward,tighten the blue wing nut until the coil spring above it is partially compressed. This ensures the powder bar is pulled all the way back to pick up the next powder charge. The powder bar should go the full way over before the handle bottoms out. Cases should be flared to .010"-.020" larger than a sized unflared case measures.

[kcobean]

Thanks guys. I feel a little silly now. I suspect that what happened is that the previous owner of this rig had this toolhead/die-set set up for .10mm. I did have to drop the seat die down a bit, but not what I would have guessed is the difference between .40 and 10mm case length. Maybe I'm wrong, but that would leave the powder die set too high for .40 caliber and cause the charge bar to short stroke. I will verify tonight and and report back so that the next guy who is new to these things will run across my thread in a search and go AHA!

Thanks again!

[kcobean]

Also, be sure the blue wing nut at the bottom of the return rod is tight enough.Push forward on the handle, as if seating a primer,and while holding the handle forward,tighten the blue wing nut until the coil spring above it is partially compressed. This ensures the powder bar is pulled all the way back to pick up the next powder charge. The powder bar should go the full way over before the handle bottoms out. Cases should be flared to .010"-.020" larger than a sized unflared case measures.

Thank you dillon support! I did check the return rod and it's adjusted properly. I believe I made the foolish assumption that the dies were set properly for .40 cal, probably because so few people shoot 10mm, the odds were "in my favor", but if it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all.

On the subject of case flare/crimp, how do I know if my crimp die is set properly? Once I got my seat die set properly, I did creatively load a few rounds (each measured on my D-Terminator scale twice) to work out my base load data, but I'm confident that my crimp die is not doing anything at this point even though when I measure my case necks with the bullet seated, I'm at .420, which is .003 under spec. How do I know when my crimp die is set and doing it's job?

Thanks again!

Edited April 30, 2012 by kcobean

[Youngeyes]

Back your crimp die out and raise the ram. Tighten the die til you feel the case. Lower the ram slightly and tighten the die 1/2 turn. Raise the ram, then lower it and recheck the flare on the case. Repeat until you remove all flare. Check with your barrel or a case gauge. Takes a little practice. Be carefull not to overcrimp. You just want to remove all flaring.

[kcobean]

Back your crimp die out and raise the ram. Tighten the die til you feel the case. Lower the ram slightly and tighten the die 1/2 turn. Raise the ram, then lower it and recheck the flare on the case. Repeat until you remove all flare. Check with your barrel or a case gauge. Takes a little practice. Be carefull not to overcrimp. You just want to remove all flaring.

Thanks Youngeyes! You're a very helpful possum, albeit a bit cross-eyed with big ears.

[usmc0326]

On the subject of case flare/crimp, how do I know if my crimp die is set properly?

Start with the baseline flare. Run the ram on the 650 all the way up. Tighten the crimp die down till it touches a sized case, add 1/2 turn and that should remove the bell you previously put in it at the powder die station. The idea of the crimp in pistol bullets is just to remove the bell, in canallured bullets your trying to crimp it into the void. This is usually the exception rather than the rule for our application.

Cheers

[kcobean]

I confirmed that the powder charge die was set for 10mm. Lowered it down so it's just lightly flaring the case neck and now the powder bar runs all the way and charges are dead on.

Youngeyes,

I did as you and USMC0326 said...ram all the way up, turn crimp die down until contact with bullet, lower ram a bit, add a 1/2 turn. Seems to be spot on...the flare is gone and I'm getting about a .421 at the neck, so .002 under spec. I have one question from a safety standpoint....how do you know if you're overcrimping as you mentioned above, and can this create unsafe case pressures?

[kalaur]

Don't worry about pressures from overcrimping until you see the case really digging into the bullet, and with jacketed bullets, you'll actually see the jacket compress too. One way I check my crimp is to lay a loaded crimped round lengthwise in the jaws of your caliper and hold it to the light. You should see just a hair of light at the very mouth of the case, but be sure to rotate the case around as well, to ensure teh flare is gone from all sides and your crimp is consistent. Mine generally measures 0.419-0.420 for both lead and jacketed bullets.

When tightening the dies after you have them adjusted, make sure to have a case in that station and lower the handle so the case is inside the die when you tighten the locknut. This keeps the die centered as you tighten it. Also be sure to have the shellplate full when adjusting dies too, the little flex in the shellplate from sizing a case can throw off your bullet seat and crimp by quite a bit.

When I'm adjusting a new toolhead/dies, I get them all close by just testing one station at a time first. Then I start loading ammo, checking each station as I go with a full shellplate. Adjust and fine tune as I go, then when it all looks good, lower the handle with a full shellplate and tighten it all down. The resulting loaded ammo I generally shoot, because the OAL and crimp are fairly close, so their not unsafe. If I find a round that is way short or something, I just pull the bullet and load the case/bullet later.

Have fun, be safe, and good luck.

[kcobean]

Thanks Kalaur. Much appreciated.