Paul B Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Ohio recently passed a CCW bill and many local shooters are rushing to get the permits. The law, however, is somewhat idiosycratic and allows businesses to post the signs disallowing carry on their premises. One thing that has wrankeled me is that one local shooting club (primarily shotgun but with extensive pistol and rifle facilities) has decided to post one of the signs prohibiting CCW unless you are a LEO. This has brought up two questions for me: 1. Does this seem as wierd to you as it does to me? 2. If LEO can still carry what do we do about "cold ranges" for the once a month USPSA match. I believe this may have been discussed here in passing, but do not remember. My personal feeling is that a cold range is a cold range and everyone must comply or leave the range - thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Hi Paul, We actually tried to deal with this during the last IPSC Rules Committee session, but the matter was deferred, much to my chagrin. The problem is that even if you are a LEO, unless you're on official duty, as soon as you enter "the range area" (to be defined), you're in breach of IPSC Rule 10.5.13 and should be DQ'd. To me, it would make sense to have a simple rule which says something like: "The Match Director must clearly delineate the boundaries of the range where the rules of IPSC competition apply, and he should also provide an area with a suitable back-stop where loaded firearms can be safely unloaded prior to entry to the delineated area". As far as I can determine, the only thing the MD needs to do is place a large sign at the entrance to the range near the car park stating: "Unless on official Government business, no person may bring a loaded firearm beyond this point, without the express authority of a Range Official actually officiating at the match". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRNinTX Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Paul, At our matches we generally remind everyone in the match announcements at the first two or three matches that we run a cold range in accordance with USPSA rules. We ask them to unload and bag their carry weapons after they turn into the gate and before they get to the range area. I agree that it seems a little weird that you can carry in the general public, but not on the range property, but then again as a rule a person would not be handling their weapon in the general public the same way they would while at the range. I have seen, as I am sure everyone else has some pretty scary gun handling at public ranges. Have you ever been to a public range where there is not a bullet hole where there shouldn't be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 At our club we built an area we call the "Hot Zone." The anti-Safe Zone, if you will. If you show up to shoot a match, and are packing, you go to the Hot Zone, which is the only area on the club where you can safely and permissibly load and unload your carry gun. (You can't do so on the range, in a match, or risk being DQ'd.) So, you show up, you go over, unload and proceed with the match. After you're done, go back, load up, and head home. If you are an LEO, and your department requires 24 armed status, you have a choice; either shoot with us on a cold range, with your departmental gun in your range bag unloaded but with loaded mags in the bag, ready to go at a moment's notice, or not shoot with us. If your boss will not allow you to pack your issue sidearm that way, have a nice day. But have it someplace else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 One thing that has wrankeled me is that one local shooting club (primarily shotgun but with extensive pistol and rifle facilities) has decided to post one of the signs prohibiting CCW unless you are a LEO.This has brought up two questions for me: 1. Does this seem as wierd to you as it does to me? It's weird, but not unexpected. We fall into a trap when we assume that just because someone (or a group) shoots or owns guns that they really do support RKBA for everyone. A lot of them simply do not, even if they believe they do. Sounds like your club is a good place to begin practicing "don't ask; don't tell," outside of organized match activity, of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 At our indoor range facility, we have zones of 'carry' and 'no carry', more for safety than anything else. An on-duty LEO, however, may carry anywhere in the building. Range members need to be clear before entering the showroom/store area. Or, upon entering the store area (because management discourages loading and unloading in the parking lot) a shooter may proceed to the actual range area or to the adjacent classroom (if unoccupied) and clear his/her pistol there before proceeding with their shooting session. Again, it's more a liability/safety issue than attitudinal issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 I will never be comfortable with different rules for LEOs and non-LEOs. I understand that it's currently a reality of life, but I don't like it, it's wrong, and I will never support it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Private property owners have the right to exclude anyone they wish for any reason...same goes for ranges...LEO personnel can either comply or leave...who is going to rob folks at the range during a match with all those guns and ammo, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Right on Rhino! My experience has been that there is a group (demographic) of shooter that really resists the idea of concealed carry and, I think, by extension, the games that have popped up (IPSC, IDPA, Polite Society, etc). They also usually dislike any firearm that is black. These are usually older guys who shoot trap/skeet/sporting clays, benchrest rifle, and NRA Highpower, and bullseye (with a Garand or M1A1, not an AR). I'm not saying that if you shoot these sports, you think the wrong way, the fact that you are here and reading this means you probably do lots of different sports. I personally really like sporting clays and I'm looking at NRA Highpower, but I also love 3-gun and IDPA. That's all cool! These guys have been for the past 25 - 30 years that "Silent Majority" of gun owners never really said much and have allowed gun rights in general to be eroded. I pretty much agree with Rhino: -Don't carry hot during organized HANDGUN match activity, just no point really, and it is too easy to screw up and hurt someone. I think it is fair for MD to require that. -Carry hot if you want and are doing other stuff, but do NOT fiddle with it - much like you are carrying at the mall. Don't put on your game rig and load it up. I carry a 3" Kimber in various ways depending on what I'm doing - sometimes an ankle holster. -I don't see any reason you can't carry if you're shooting shotguns (especially the stand still type of shooting), working as an admin checking people in, etc. Again, don't fiddle, and don't display, just like at the mall. -Get involved in the club decision making process so you can stop/guide these kind of issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 People carry on our range all the time - and for good reason. Our particular range is out in the boondocks. No phones. No cell phones. 10 years ago, you'd almost certainly be there all by your lonesome. And if you saw some of the 6-toed yokels I did running around the public range area with sawed off shotguns in one hand and a half-case of beer in the other, you'd be packing heat too. Things have changed, and now you're far less likely to be on the range alone, but I don't fault anyone for carrying - as do I (just not during a match). DQ me. Ban me. Call the sherriff on me. Have black helicopters rocket my car. Here's a quarter. Call someone who gives a crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 If it is concealed carry and you are doing it correctly; noone should know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 I and everyone else carries openly. It simply doesn't bother me in the least. It is perfectly legal to open carry here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 I just depends on the circumstances...people going around healed don't bother me either...it is the dumb butts that think they are going to replace LEO, the mall ninjas, etc that scare me... It is something different entirely if you are alone in the boonies and have Mr. Drunk and Mr. Drunker show up healed as well...understand that as well...have to do what you need to do there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Well, at our range it's still a company liability thing and the owner's prerogative. I neither condone nor resist that for the moment. We HAVE had about three or four "accidents" since the place opened both in the showroom and out in the parking lot with ADs. And one or two serious ones in the range area itself. (Thank god for bulletproof glass and bulletproof booths--I mean it.) The range is located in a well-traveled area, is not "out in the boonies" and does not have serious security issues inside or out. Oh, forgot to mention: Our full-time NRA instructor/Glock armorer DOES carry full-time in the building. That's his designation. Call HIM our 'security' if you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 I didn't feel a need to carry at the Baron's Den and respected their sensible wishes. But, thinking that banning carry in general creates "safety" is pretty illusory. It doesn't stop morons from deliberately shooting the baffles. It doesn't stop them from holstering hot guns in shoulder holsters and drawing from therof (seen that one in person just recently). I'm not objecting to the IPSC/USPSA policy of a cold range, but blanket prohibitions can become silly in a hurry. Among the few shooters I know, virtually every one of them has a hot gun with them *somewhere* when out shooting alone - regardless of the range's policy. I think some people need a reality check on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Reading the replies, I should be clearer about our club's policy: the "unload in the Hot Zone" is for match days only. If you have a CCW and want to drive in, shoot, and leave while packing, go for it. If you want to declare the range you're one for your practice a hot range, and not unload (provided you are there first) then you can. You can walk around concealed on the grounds, except for the property line (we have houses on three sides, built right up to the property line) you can. However, we are a members-only and their guests private club, and we do IPSC and only IPSC shooting. (Well, some pins, ICORE, etc. too.) No walk-ins, no retail, no skeet or trap. If you want to shoot you either join or wait until the next match and then follow the USPSA rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 I could care less about do not carry in business signs, no one (unless they know me) knows I am carrying anyway. And I'd rather face the judge if they had to find out I was carrying. I will not carry where not allowed by federal or state law. As far as the range goes, there is no reason not to respect the range rules. Some people feel naked without a gun, I respect that, but if you go somewhere to shoot, then you should respect the rules. If you don't like the rules, shoot somewhere else or carry your gun without the mag in the gun. I doubt if something were to "go down" you wouldn't have enough time to slap a mag in it and make it "hot." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 -Carry hot if you want and are doing other stuff, but do NOT fiddle with it - much like you are carrying at the mall. Don't put on your game rig and load it up. I carry a 3" Kimber in various ways depending on what I'm doing - sometimes an ankle holster.-I don't see any reason you can't carry if you're shooting shotguns (especially the stand still type of shooting), working as an admin checking people in, etc. Again, don't fiddle, and don't display, just like at the mall. I agree 100%. You're not going to find someone like me shooting shotguns on the range without a little somethin' somethin' on him somewhere. Heck, if someone like me is shooting a pistol event that does not use holsters (like bowling pins or GSSF) ... well, don't ask and someone like me won't tell. And I know someone reading this will have the reactions "why do you 'need' to carry while you have _______ available to you?" Which of course misses more than one point. It's not about "need." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 It's not about "need." I think Sigmond Frued would agree with you (sorry, I couldn't resist and I tried ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 1. Does this seem as wierd to you as it does to me? I'm absolutely appalled! We got the same thing passed here in MN last year. Anyone who puts up the sign is immediately recognized by anyone as owned by a liberal anti-gun dipsh!t. My club requires all members to be NRA members ... let your NRA membership expire, and your club membership expires as well. Unbelievable! I'm so sick of people puttin' down the NRA like it's some sort of ultra-evil cult with some sort of strangle-hold on politicians and a paranoid para-military following. It's the most powerful lobby in the world for one reason only ... it has the most members. It sure didn't take England long to decide the Remington Wingmaster was "an effective assault weapon". If most NIMBY gun-owners realized what's truly at stake, the NRA could easily have tens of millions of members. And, unlike the ACLU, the NRA doesn't believe NAMBLA has a right to promote it's "recipe for success". Man! Talk about a broken moral compass! Sorry to get off on a rant like that. I just can't imagine what some people are thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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