The 2" rule and thumbrests.

[Neomet]

Sorry if this is posted somplace but I couldn't find it addressed in anything I searched. (Hey, its late, what do ya want?) Big Blue says:

5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor’s

handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor’s belt, the

measurement shall be taken in the following manner:

— perpendicular to the belt at the point of attachment to the belt

— from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the

pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any

reloading device

My question is if a thumbrest would be considered the "nearest body-side surface" of the handgun. Seems like it would to me.

Thanks

Edited April 9, 2012 by Neomet

[Skydiver]

... or slide racker

... or extended mag release

... or mag well (after seeing the video on the weird surrender position thread)

My opinion is that the thumbrest (as well as the 3 things I listed above) would count as the surface. As far as I know, there is no implied restriction that "a surface" must be flat, rigid, and have some minimum area. I do understand that this could push the absurd -- imaging a 3" plastic fishing line out the left side of the gun whose only purpose in to provide a "surface" to measure to for the sake of the rule.

[Jim Norman]

We really need to have a clear definition here. Years ago off shore sailboat racing had very seaworthy boats that would self right even if rolled though a complete knockdown. Then they came up with "Rating Bumps" where there was a formula that was used that developed what I refer to as Pumpkin seed boats. Very fast and with hi initial stability. However if they rolled past a certain point they stayed upside down.

The point here is to define a point on the gun in a manner that cannot be interpreted in a way that allows for that long piece of fishing line that we measure from. Perhaps the measurement should be from the center line of the bore? Put all the bumps you want, but the gun can only be so thick or it won't fit the measurement criteria.

[Neomet]

Unambiguous wording can be a real PITA. Witness "centerline of the gun". Centerline including the thumbrest, slide racker or fishing line? Heck, you don't even have to really talk about these sort of Open/Limited gun options. As I cant a holster outward the barrel end moves in closer to my leg. I could easily have a holster set up where everything on the upper end is more than 2" away from the inner edge of the belt but where the lower portion of the slide/barrel would be clearly inside the 2".

[Nik Habicht]

Unambiguous wording can be a real PITA. Witness "centerline of the gun". Centerline including the thumbrest, slide racker or fishing line? Heck, you don't even have to really talk about these sort of Open/Limited gun options. As I cant a holster outward the barrel end moves in closer to my leg. I could easily have a holster set up where everything on the upper end is more than 2" away from the inner edge of the belt but where the lower portion of the slide/barrel would be clearly inside the 2".

You can't do that and remain legal -- because we measure the maximum distance to the gun, not the minimum.....

So the barrel could be level with the belt; if the grip's three inches away, you're out of compliance.....

5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor’s handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor’s belt, the measurement shall be taken in the following manner:

— perpendicular to the belt at the point of attachment to the belt

— from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device.

Nearest body side surface -- we're not saying the entire gun, including outside surfaces need to be within the two inches. We are saying that if any portion of the handgun or mag extends more than two inches away from the inner surface of the belt, that the gear is noncompliant.....

[Neomet]

Unambiguous wording can be a real PITA. Witness "centerline of the gun". Centerline including the thumbrest, slide racker or fishing line? Heck, you don't even have to really talk about these sort of Open/Limited gun options. As I cant a holster outward the barrel end moves in closer to my leg. I could easily have a holster set up where everything on the upper end is more than 2" away from the inner edge of the belt but where the lower portion of the slide/barrel would be clearly inside the 2".

You can't do that and remain legal -- because we measure the maximum distance to the gun, not the minimum.....

So the barrel could be level with the belt; if the grip's three inches away, you're out of compliance.....

5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor’s handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor’s belt, the measurement shall be taken in the following manner:

— perpendicular to the belt at the point of attachment to the belt

— from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device.

Nearest body side surface -- we're not saying the entire gun, including outside surfaces need to be within the two inches. We are saying that if any portion of the handgun or mag extends more than two inches away from the inner surface of the belt, that the gear is noncompliant.....

Totally get the absolute need for very unambiguous wording. :-) I deal in contract law and interpretation for a living and it can just be a nightmare at times. I am still a bit lost on your last sentence though. If the measurement is to be "from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device." I don't see how that could be interpreted to mean that if any portion of the handgun extends more than two inches away it is non-compliant. If the rule said "from the inner most surface of the surface of the belt equipment (against the pants body) to furthest surface of the handgun and or any reloading device" I could see that. It seems to me that the nearest body-side surface denotes that the two inch standard is met when whatever portion of the handgun is closest to the body is within the 2", not if any portion of it is outside the 2". As I recall the photo example given in the rule book the measurement is being taken from the inside edge of the handgun, not the furthest portion of it from the belt.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Jim Norman]

Unambiguous wording can be a real PITA. Witness "centerline of the gun". Centerline including the thumbrest, slide racker or fishing line? Heck, you don't even have to really talk about these sort of Open/Limited gun options. As I cant a holster outward the barrel end moves in closer to my leg. I could easily have a holster set up where everything on the upper end is more than 2" away from the inner edge of the belt but where the lower portion of the slide/barrel would be clearly inside the 2".

Actually it can be pretty simple. Centerline of the bore measured at the front of the ejection port. If we really wanted to define a particular position, we could. It would take a little work, but it is possible. We could designate the center of the hammer or the center of the rear of the slide. THere are certain parts that are going to be common and can be defined.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Jim Norman

[Neomet]

Unambiguous wording can be a real PITA. Witness "centerline of the gun". Centerline including the thumbrest, slide racker or fishing line? Heck, you don't even have to really talk about these sort of Open/Limited gun options. As I cant a holster outward the barrel end moves in closer to my leg. I could easily have a holster set up where everything on the upper end is more than 2" away from the inner edge of the belt but where the lower portion of the slide/barrel would be clearly inside the 2".

Actually it can be pretty simple. Centerline of the bore measured at the front of the ejection port. If we really wanted to define a particular position, we could. It would take a little work, but it is possible. We could designate the center of the hammer or the center of the rear of the slide. THere are certain parts that are going to be common and can be defined.

Yep, they just have to be precise. Center of the hammer/rear sight is a good idea or inside/outside edge of the most rearward portion of the slide. Haven't really thought it through as to what would work for all variations of firearms.

[juan]

Unambiguous wording can be a real PITA. Witness "centerline of the gun". Centerline including the thumbrest, slide racker or fishing line? Heck, you don't even have to really talk about these sort of Open/Limited gun options. As I cant a holster outward the barrel end moves in closer to my leg. I could easily have a holster set up where everything on the upper end is more than 2" away from the inner edge of the belt but where the lower portion of the slide/barrel would be clearly inside the 2".

You can't do that and remain legal -- because we measure the maximum distance to the gun, not the minimum.....

So the barrel could be level with the belt; if the grip's three inches away, you're out of compliance.....

5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor’s handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor’s belt, the measurement shall be taken in the following manner:

— perpendicular to the belt at the point of attachment to the belt

— from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device.

Nearest body side surface -- we're not saying the entire gun, including outside surfaces need to be within the two inches. We are saying that if any portion of the handgun or mag extends more than two inches away from the inner surface of the belt, that the gear is noncompliant.....

Totally get the absolute need for very unambiguous wording. :-) I deal in contract law and interpretation for a living and it can just be a nightmare at times. I am still a bit lost on your last sentence though. If the measurement is to be "from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device." I don't see how that could be interpreted to mean that if any portion of the handgun extends more than two inches away it is non-compliant. If the rule said "from the inner most surface of the surface of the belt equipment (against the pants body) to furthest surface of the handgun and or any reloading device" I could see that. It seems to me that the nearest body-side surface denotes that the two inch standard is met when whatever portion of the handgun is closest to the body is within the 2", not if any portion of it is outside the 2". As I recall the photo example given in the rule book the measurement is being taken from the inside edge of the handgun, not the furthest portion of it from the belt.

Thanks for the feedback.

I figured if I hooked the inside of my belt with my tape measure and any part of my pistol touches withen 2 inches good to go

[Outsydlooknin75]

Unambiguous wording can be a real PITA. Witness "centerline of the gun". Centerline including the thumbrest, slide racker or fishing line? Heck, you don't even have to really talk about these sort of Open/Limited gun options. As I cant a holster outward the barrel end moves in closer to my leg. I could easily have a holster set up where everything on the upper end is more than 2" away from the inner edge of the belt but where the lower portion of the slide/barrel would be clearly inside the 2".

You can't do that and remain legal -- because we measure the maximum distance to the gun, not the minimum.....

So the barrel could be level with the belt; if the grip's three inches away, you're out of compliance.....

5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor’s handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor’s belt, the measurement shall be taken in the following manner:

— perpendicular to the belt at the point of attachment to the belt

— from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device.

Nearest body side surface -- we're not saying the entire gun, including outside surfaces need to be within the two inches. We are saying that if any portion of the handgun or mag extends more than two inches away from the inner surface of the belt, that the gear is noncompliant.....

Totally get the absolute need for very unambiguous wording. :-) I deal in contract law and interpretation for a living and it can just be a nightmare at times. I am still a bit lost on your last sentence though. If the measurement is to be "from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device." I don't see how that could be interpreted to mean that if any portion of the handgun extends more than two inches away it is non-compliant. If the rule said "from the inner most surface of the surface of the belt equipment (against the pants body) to furthest surface of the handgun and or any reloading device" I could see that. It seems to me that the nearest body-side surface denotes that the two inch standard is met when whatever portion of the handgun is closest to the body is within the 2", not if any portion of it is outside the 2". As I recall the photo example given in the rule book the measurement is being taken from the inside edge of the handgun, not the furthest portion of it from the belt.

Thanks for the feedback.

I figured if I hooked the inside of my belt with my tape measure and any part of my pistol touches withen 2 inches good to go

That's my understanding as well. The inside edge on my slide is within 2 inches on the inside edge of my belt. The inside edge on the magwell is not as I have twisted the butt of the gun out away from my body to give me better access.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

[Nik Habicht]

Unambiguous wording can be a real PITA. Witness "centerline of the gun". Centerline including the thumbrest, slide racker or fishing line? Heck, you don't even have to really talk about these sort of Open/Limited gun options. As I cant a holster outward the barrel end moves in closer to my leg. I could easily have a holster set up where everything on the upper end is more than 2" away from the inner edge of the belt but where the lower portion of the slide/barrel would be clearly inside the 2".

You can't do that and remain legal -- because we measure the maximum distance to the gun, not the minimum.....

So the barrel could be level with the belt; if the grip's three inches away, you're out of compliance.....

5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor’s handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor’s belt, the measurement shall be taken in the following manner:

— perpendicular to the belt at the point of attachment to the belt

— from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device.

Nearest body side surface -- we're not saying the entire gun, including outside surfaces need to be within the two inches. We are saying that if any portion of the handgun or mag extends more than two inches away from the inner surface of the belt, that the gear is noncompliant.....

Totally get the absolute need for very unambiguous wording. :-) I deal in contract law and interpretation for a living and it can just be a nightmare at times. I am still a bit lost on your last sentence though. If the measurement is to be "from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device." I don't see how that could be interpreted to mean that if any portion of the handgun extends more than two inches away it is non-compliant. If the rule said "from the inner most surface of the surface of the belt equipment (against the pants body) to furthest surface of the handgun and or any reloading device" I could see that. It seems to me that the nearest body-side surface denotes that the two inch standard is met when whatever portion of the handgun is closest to the body is within the 2", not if any portion of it is outside the 2". As I recall the photo example given in the rule book the measurement is being taken from the inside edge of the handgun, not the furthest portion of it from the belt.

Thanks for the feedback.

Once upon a time there was a location specified -- I'm thinking middle of the grip. I'd have to dig out an old rulebook to check....

The idea is that you'll hook a measuring tape on the inside of the belt, and run it out until you run into the gun -- near side meaning left side of the blaster for a typical right handed shooter.....

In other words the measurement's taken in a relatively straight line, not necessarily diagonally up to reach the center of the grip, or diagonally down to reach some point on the slide....

What I was getting at was that if you tilt the gun -- so that the muzzle swings in toward the body and the grip cants out to the side -- to be careful that you don't exceed the two inch maximum there.....

And yes, that could possibly be clearer....

[Neomet]

Gotcha Nik. That makes sense. That would take out the thumbrest and probably sliderackers since those are normally below the beltline (although I should point out that technically the wording does not specify the closest part of the gun above the belt). This has been interesting. Thanks!

Edited April 10, 2012 by Neomet

[Skydiver]

I'm confused... I can't find the thread now, but a while back it was noted that the way the rule was worded it wasn't required that the 2" measurement be from the top edge of the belt -- it would be legal to measure from the bottom edge of the belt to the gun as long as it was measure perpendicularly. This is because it still complies with the rule:

5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor’s handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor’s belt, the measurement shall be taken in the following manner:

— perpendicular to the belt at the point of attachment to the belt

— from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device.

5.2.5.1 These measurements may be taken with the equipment as worn or removed (see App. E2).

Has there been a public ruling, clarification that the only way to measure is the way picture in Appendix E2? Or was there something that being taught by the NROI Instructor corp that just hasn't been made generally public?

[kevin c]

//drift// Seems to me the idea was that it is easier, but not, ah, "practical", to have the gun further away from the body on the draw - more clearance for the hand for acquiring the firing grip being a big part of it. Mebbe the rules should go back to some maximum clearance between the belt and any part of the inside grip panel. //drift//

Edited April 14, 2012 by kevin c

[BBoyle]

Why don't they just specify "the frame" and let any part of the frame be whatever surrounds the cylinder or envelops or is enveloped by the slide.

[vluc]

If we really wanted to define a particular position, we could.

LOL! We are still trying to get "hipbone" defined for some production and sstk shooters....