Not-So-Mad Matt Posted April 2, 2012 Author Share Posted April 2, 2012 Have you ever shot a stage & without ever hearing your scores called or the time, you knew you shot it well? Yes, I have definitely shot a stage and known I shot it well -- and, as I reconfirmed this weekend, I can "know" I shot a stage well without it being true. So I still need to work on really seeing where the sights are lined up right when the shot breaks. Unfortunately there is no "shortcut" or quick answer to calling shots unless you can call learning proper skills early in your shooting career a shortcut. The goal is to train as efficiently as possible. A friend of mine has been dry-firing with the drills in Steve Anderson's book, and that reminded me that Anderson made Master after just one year of training -- with an "open" gun. Has anyone dry-fired their way to Master that quickly with iron sights? (I'm assuming they have, but...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 You wanna learn follow through… Your splits however… In all seriousness though, if you're looking to branch out in your shooting hobby, it will certainly teach you how to follow through. Assuming you want to hit anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Knowing exactly where each shot will hit the target, before it hits the target, is the single most important thing concept the shooter must master, and the single most important job the shooter must always do. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 A friend of mine has been dry-firing with the drills in Steve Anderson's book, and that reminded me that Anderson made Master after just one year of training -- with an "open" gun. Has anyone dry-fired their way to Master that quickly with iron sights? (I'm assuming they have, but...) I'm completely familiar with Steve's path. I wrote the foreword to his book and was shooting along side of him the whole time (with my iron sighted Glock). Steve didn't achieve success because he bought an Open gun (come to think of it, I sold him that gun). Steve achieved success because he mentally wrapped his head around doing what he needed to do. He DECIDED ...then he did the work. One thing I do caution shooters about that go right to Open... is that they learn by using a target focus. That will often bite them in the ass when they try to shoot iron sights...as they aren't used to bringing their vision back and seeing that front sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baa Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 (edited) I recently started shooting Open after shooting Limited and Single Stack for about 6 years. I have learned more about shot calling, trigger pull, and follow through in the past couple weeks than I have in the past couple years shooting iron sights. I can really see what is happening when I pull the trigger with a dot. I have already indentified some trigger control issues I have had for years which I could not diagnose with iron sights. Wow, that sounds like a strong yes vote, baa. I also built a Ruger 22/45 with a Dot and Comp (much cheaper than an USPSA Open gun) and it helping with my training. When you say, "much cheaper than an USPSA Open gun," that leaves a lot of wiggle room... How much does it cost to mount a dot on a Ruger 22/45, anyway? Keep in mind that I have been stuck in A class for a couple years in Limited and Single Stack, so I do not claim any expertise in shooting... That said, for ME, shooting and practice Open the past few weeks has been a real eye opener. I thought my trigger control and grip were pretty good when I shot irons. The dot tells me that I need to put a lot more time in to the basics of grip and trigger control. In around two weeks, I can already see my trigger control improving. And I mean really see it, as I can see the dot movement and clearly call where the dot is when my shot breaks. So far, Open is turning in to an awesome learning tool for me. I bought a Ruger 22/45, put a C-More on it, and put a Comp and trigger kit in. Call it $800 ish for those parts and extra mags. I use it primarily as my rimfire steel gun, but I have been using it to practice trigger control basics and it is helping me a lot while shooting cost effective ammo. Edited April 3, 2012 by baa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not-So-Mad Matt Posted April 3, 2012 Author Share Posted April 3, 2012 Steve didn't achieve success because he bought an Open gun. Steve achieved success because he mentally wrapped his head around doing what he needed to do. He DECIDED ...then he did the work. Steve clearly did the work; there's no doubt about that. The question is, does practicing with an "open" gun give you more feedback, so that you learn more from the same amount of work than you would with iron sights. I can certainly imagine different techniques teaching your more or less than other techniques; I wouldn't be surprised by different equipment teaching your more or less. For instance, shooting a flintlock pistol, as CAS suggested, would force you to work on one kind of follow-through -- not moving on before the shot has really and truly broken and left the muzzle -- but would likely hurt your ability to watch the sights rise and fall -- since you're shooting one-handed and the gun's belching black smoke. More seriously, it is harder to watch the sights rise and fall if you're shooting a small, light pistol, weak-hand-only, with a powerful load, but it's probably easier to notice poor trigger control. And so on. One thing I do caution shooters about that go right to Open... is that they learn by using a target focus. That will often bite them in the ass when they try to shoot iron sights... as they aren't used to bringing their vision back and seeing that front sight. Yeah, that certainly seems true. Front-sight focus requires practice with an actual front sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not-So-Mad Matt Posted April 12, 2012 Author Share Posted April 12, 2012 I bought a Ruger 22/45, put a C-More on it, and put a Comp and trigger kit in. Call it $800 ish for those parts and extra mags. I use it primarily as my rimfire steel gun, but I have been using it to practice trigger control basics and it is helping me a lot while shooting cost effective ammo. So, this past weekend I bought a cheap $40 TruGlo red-dot, put the rail on my Ruger 22/45, and had a blast exploring how the "open" shooters do things. The cheap dot worked remarkably well at an indoor range. It is so much easier to "line up" a dot than front and rear sights, of course -- although you can "lose" the dot, if your index is off -- and the elevation in particular is so much clearer. I definitely felt like I could watch the dot rise and fall much, much more easily than I could follow an iron front sight. What took me off guard was the amount of parallax from how high the dot was mounted over the bore. Quickly zeroing the dot at five yards meant shooting inches high at 10 yards, re-zeroing at 10 yards still meant shooting way high at 15, re-zeroing at 15 still meant shooting way at 20 yards, etc. I don't know yet if this red-dot practice does transfer over to iron sights, but it's eye-opening and fun, and that's worth something right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMSI Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I have just decided that I WILL learn this skill after years of shooting without it. Is there some good video of what "seeing signts lift" actually looks like through the eye (as opposed to the camera), taking into account various things - especially eye blinking? Occasionally I see the sights lift but usually I do not. I have experienced the "photo" effect of very dim lighting at an indoor range. I have also watched the front sight lift (up and to the right) while shooting an MP-5 on full auto. But I have a hard time remembering just what it is I am looking for while shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirveyr Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I have just decided that I WILL learn this skill... Occasionally I see the sights lift but usually I do not.... ... I have a hard time remembering just what it is I am looking for while shooting. Since you have DECIDED... make seeing then sights your one true goal while shooting. Forget...completely...about any outcome or expectations (in other words...lose any ego tied to your score). Make it all about seeing and knowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not-So-Mad Matt Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 I find it easier to call CPL Tomasie's shots than my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMSI Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Very well. I am committed. I am a beliver. Pass the grape juice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Griffin Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Shoot bullseye. Negative reinforcement works very well for this, and it wouldn't kill you to blow some money on a proper bullseye air pistol. The increased lock time will exacerbate any followthrough errors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 This is a great post so pulling it back to the top seems like a good idea. Over the last couple of weeks I have spent a lot of time with my 22 1911 conversion doing live fire drills. My goal was to learn to shoot on the move. Notice I said learn as up to now I have done very little of it. I do 555 round sessions with the 22 followed by 100+- in my 9mm or .40 1911. I start each gun's session shooting 6 shots @ 2" circles @ 10 yards until I can put all 6 in the black. This gets my sight focus and trigger control tuned up. Next it has been various 8-10 round stages set up where moving and shooting are the best way to get through the stage fast. I always shoot it the old way, standing still, to get a base line then switch to moving and shooting. The goal is all A's every time, not speed. The focus is on letting the sights control my speed. I am 6%+- slower with the 9mm and about 8% slower with the .40 than the .22. The cool part is I can switch and I don't have to think about running it any different. I just let my sights control my speed. Most, if not all, of the time difference is in my splits. I have done 4 of these sessions and what I found is an improvement on my moving and shooting but the biggest gain has been in shot calling. If I don't call my shots when I am moving and shooting I can't get to my goal of all A's. The 22 is very simple to call shots with due to the lack of recoil. When I switch to the 9mm or the .40 I have to focus a lot more on calling my shots at first because the gun is moving more but because I have spent so much time with the .22 I know what to look for. I guess my point is that the .22 seems to be a good tool to help me learn to call my shots. With less recoil going on it is simpler to do, then once I see it I can transfer the skill to the 9mm and .40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not-So-Mad Matt Posted May 31, 2012 Author Share Posted May 31, 2012 Over the last couple of weeks I have spent a lot of time with my 22 1911 conversion doing live fire drills. [...] I have done 4 of these sessions and what I found is an improvement on my moving and shooting but the biggest gain has been in shot calling. If I don't call my shots when I am moving and shooting I can't get to my goal of all A's. The 22 is very simple to call shots with due to the lack of recoil. When I switch to the 9mm or the .40 I have to focus a lot more on calling my shots at first because the gun is moving more but because I have spent so much time with the .22 I know what to look for. I guess my point is that the .22 seems to be a good tool to help me learn to call my shots. With less recoil going on it is simpler to do, then once I see it I can transfer the skill to the 9mm and .40. That sounds like one more solid vote for the .22 as a tool for learning to follow through and call shots. Is your 1911 conversion working well for you? I hear they're more reliable than the Glock conversion kits, but I have no personal experience with either. (Has anyone here had any luck using an Airsoft gun for learning to call shots?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Is your 1911 conversion working well for you? once I found the ammo it likes to eat, and I keep it a bit wet, it runs very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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