Tools for Learning to Follow Through

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

Advanced shooters seem to agree that the key to shooting well is learning to follow through and watch the sights rise and fall. Once you can do that, you can call your shots -- and that helps you take your shooting to another level.

I can't say I've seen much great advice on how to learn this vital skill, beyond (1) have someone else make sure you're not blinking with each shot, and (2) really, really try to follow your sights really, really hard.

This passage from Matt Burkett's Practical Shooting Manual caught my eye though:

I can shoot iron sights better since learning how to shoot a dot sight. The dot helps you see a graphic illustration of what the gun does during recoil. Since your eye is tracking the dot you also learn to see faster, which helps when going back to irons. The most difficult thing about iron sights is learning to track the front sight during recoil.

Is this a commonly accepted point of view?

Has anyone had any luck using a .22 or airsoft pistol to learn follow through on a platform with less recoil?

Any other tips or tricks?

[Sin-ster]

I can't say for sure whether or not shooting a dot helps you to learn to call the shots with irons, but it's definitely easier.

Thinking back, I *do* remember shooting my AR with a dot quite a bit and realizing just how easy it was to know without question where the shot was going. It was shortly there after that the same thing became true of the irons-- so maybe there's something to it!

I'd say shooting groups from the bench is a huge, huge tool in this regard as well. It takes a lot of factors out of the mix and allows your perception to function at its highest.

Just something to consider-- I noticed the first element of shot calling that I picked up was when the sight was indexed in the wrong spot on the target. Actually seeing it shift in the notch before the shot broke came afterwards, but YMMV.

[Flexmoney]

What threads did you find when you searched?

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

What threads did you find when you searched?

Searching on "follow through" revealed very little. There was the recent thread asking, What is follow through?, that reminded me of my own question and the book passage I found interesting. There was also one thread on starting out with optics, where people seemed to think an uncompensated gun would lead you to keep losing the dot. I suppose that raises the question of whether it's the optic or the compensation that makes an "open" gun easier to follow through with.

As I mentioned in my original post, most of the advice I've seen -- here and elsewhere -- has simply emphasized trying to follow the front sight, and thoughts on .22 and airsoft training seem mixed -- and I haven't seen anyone mention them as better platforms for learning to follow through initially. Have I missed a wonderfully useful thread?

[eric nielsen]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32696&st=25 is one.

To dig up the 24 karat gold, try the advanced search (button to the right of the magnifying glass), put in search term like "follow through", author name "benos", all posts by author; when the search results come up, flip to the last page, which puts you back to the start of the forum. You might see a 3-page running conversation with benos & T__T, or a guest appearance by TGO. Pays to look.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

To dig up the 24 karat gold, try the advanced search (button to the right of the magnifying glass), put in search term like "follow through", author name "benos", all posts by author...

Thanks for the tip.

So, your advice from that thread was to dry-fire with an extra-long follow-through, even though there's no recoil, because that got you great results. Interesting.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Not-So-Mad Matt

[Hi-Power Jack]

NSMM, one thing that I'm finding helpful is

Dot Torture - check it out on the web -

small targets at close range - helps me with

trigger control/calling shots.

Good luck,

Jack

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

Thinking back, I do remember shooting my AR with a dot quite a bit and realizing just how easy it was to know without question where the shot was going. It was shortly there after that the same thing became true of the irons-- so maybe there's something to it!

I'd say shooting groups from the bench is a huge, huge tool in this regard as well. It takes a lot of factors out of the mix and allows your perception to function at its highest.

Just something to consider -- I noticed the first element of shot calling that I picked up was when the sight was indexed in the wrong spot on the target. Actually seeing it shift in the notch before the shot broke came afterwards, but YMMV.

So, shooting a red-dot on an AR might have improved your pistol follow-through? Very interesting, Sin-ster. Now I can justify a major purchase...

I haven't been shooting groups from a bench, but I have been slow-firing groups, off-hand, with both my 9mm and a .22. Follow-through feels very different between the two.

NSMM, one thing that I'm finding helpful is Dot Torture - check it out on the web - small targets at close range - helps me with trigger control/calling shots.

Thanks for the recommendation, Jack. I haven't been doing Dot Torture, but I've been doing fairly similar drills, by coincidence -- for instance, shooting 10 rounds WHO at a 4" ring, then 10 SHO at a 3" ring, then 10 freestyle at at 2" ring.

I feel like slow-shooting the .22 has improved my follow-through the most, but there's still plenty of room for improvement.

[baa]

I recently started shooting Open after shooting Limited and Single Stack for about 6 years. I have learned more about shot calling, trigger pull, and follow through in the past couple weeks than I have in the past couple years shooting iron sights. I can really see what is happening when I pull the trigger with a dot. I have already indentified some trigger control issues I have had for years which I could not diagnose with iron sights.

Will this ulimately translate to shooting iron sights better? I don't know yet. But I do know shooting a dot is teaching me really important things I was having trouble learning with iron sights.

I also built a Ruger 22/45 with a Dot and Comp (much cheaper than an USPSA Open gun) and it helping with my training.

[old506]

OK. Here is my new motto, see if it helps you?

When it becomes important enough, you will figure it out........

It may not mean anything to you now, but it might.

Edited March 23, 2012 by old506

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

I recently started shooting Open after shooting Limited and Single Stack for about 6 years. I have learned more about shot calling, trigger pull, and follow through in the past couple weeks than I have in the past couple years shooting iron sights. I can really see what is happening when I pull the trigger with a dot. I have already indentified some trigger control issues I have had for years which I could not diagnose with iron sights.

Wow, that sounds like a strong yes vote, baa.

I also built a Ruger 22/45 with a Dot and Comp (much cheaper than an USPSA Open gun) and it helping with my training.

When you say, "much cheaper than an USPSA Open gun," that leaves a lot of wiggle room...

How much does it cost to mount a dot on a Ruger 22/45, anyway?

[mlmiller1]

Here is a drill I wrote up for some friends. Bad thing is I need to practice it & learn it as well. I still don't call my shots as well as I want to. Give these lessons a try & send me some feedback if they sound reasonable or if you learn anything or even if you don't think they help.

Mark Miller

Let's talk about Calling our Shots. I've put down some drills I dreamed up. Don't try to get all the way through in one practice session. Go as far as you can, then when failure happens, back up a little bit to where you succeeded, then go forward again. I think you will have to build one lesson on the next & it may take some time to get through them.

Calling your shots:

Facts

1 Wherever the pistol is pointed when the shot breaks is where the bullet will impact

2 Knowing where the pistol is pointed when that happens is critical to shooter development

3 Learning to "see" this is doable but must be learned

Goals

1 Learn to see exactly where on the target the gun is pointed when the shot breaks

2 Develop this skill with building lessons

3 Increase speed by developing this skill

4 Improve shooting on steel--you called the hit, you moved on without waiting for the steel to fall or ring

5 React with make-up shots immediately without having to see the holes on the target or the holes on No shoot target

6 Know after you shoot a stage, how you shot on each target before it is scored

Lessons

Level 1

3 targets, 10-12yds away. Spaces between targets, maybe targets at different heights, as well. Beep, draw, fire one shot on each target quickly. Stop, close your eyes. Can you see in your mind where the gun was pointed when you broke the shot? I am NOT saying watch for the holes, I'm saying see where on the target the gun was pointed when you fired.

Can you do this? If you can see in your mind where the gun was pointed for all 3 targets, add more targets until it gets to the point you can't see or replay the shots in your mind. Then take away a target or two.

If you can't see in your mind the 3 targets, try just two. Be sure you don't cheat & look for the holes, just see in your mind the outline of the target, then see where your sights were pointed just as the trigger broke. Don't cheat! The eyes are fast enough that you can break a shot, move your eyes & gun toward the next target before the hole appears. If you wait to see your hole in the target it will defeat the purpose of this exercise.

Level 2

If you can shoot maybe 6 targets from one spot & see your hits in your mind on these targets, you need to add movement to this drill. Spread the targets down range. Left, right, higher, lower but still a good distance away from you when you fire. Too close to you, you will be looking for holes. Move through as quickly as you can, just one shot per target. Stop at the end, can you visualize where your hits are on the targets? If not, try to only shoot a couple of the targets but remember, don't let your mind cheat & peak at the targets. I suggest you keep moving after you shoot two or stop immediately & close your eyes. Can you see the hits?

Time Out--Assess what is happening

Is your confidence building? If you start feeling pretty confident & are actually seeing what you are shooting & are "calling your shots", it is time to start putting two rounds on each target. If you aren't seeing & calling, you need to start back at the beginning & see where your shot calling stops being accurate. If you are putting two on each target & you are able to see, in your mind, where the hits are without ever seeing a bullet hole, you are doing great!

Level 3

Now comes the hard part, sort of. Decide what is acceptable to you--all A hits? A hits with some C hits? A/C & an occasional D? No misses? Whatever level of accuracy you decide you must have must be decided before you can ever move your game to a higher level of shot calling, higher level of shooting.

I believe, because on Rare occasions this has happened to me, that if you will call your shots, & have confidence that you are calling them accurately, IF you will let yourself, you will make up any shots that were not at the level or up to the standard you set for yourself.

Example, if you decide you are happy with A hits, ok with C hits but will not accept D hits or misses, when you are moving through the target array shooting, trust yourself when your brain says "that was a D, make it up". Just let it happen. Make it up. If your brain says "you missed", your natural desire is to make up that shot. Let your brain drive your hands & the gun & make up the shot. Avoid the middle man, don't stop to think about it, just let it happen.

Level 4

This shot calling can & should be applied to steel targets as well. First off, you will have to decide, because most steel is smaller than a full uspsa target, you need to decide that the only thing you will accept on a steel target is an A hit. Steel is worth 5 pts, just like any other A, so it is an A & you only accept A hits on steel.

So, all A hits on steel is your goal. You will not accept anything less than an A. You will shoot A's. Period. Tell your brain this. Now, let me ask a question of you. If you hit a steel target with a good A hit, is it going to fall? Of course.

Here is where it might get sticky. Popper targets. Let me clarify a steel popper target a little bit. A steel popper target is a round target attached to an upright piece of steel that is NOT the target. The only part of a popper that is the target is the round part & the little head on top of that. The part of the popper that holds up the round part with a head on it is NOT the target. Does that make sense? If you hit below the round part, it is not a target & the steel may or may not fall. Calibration of steel is never done hitting below the round part. If you hit below the round part(the target) you might get lucky & have it fall or you might not. We are not trying to improve our "luck" here but our skill, right? So, keeping that in mind, we are shooting an A hit on a round target suspended in air by a NON target.

If you have access to poppers or plates, let's start at the beginning again. If possible, arrange 3 steel spread out, a good distance away from you. Be sure the steel is calibrated & will fall if you hit the target. Now, Beep, draw, shoot guaranteeing yourself you are shooting A's on that steel as quickly as you can. Don't wait for the ding, move your eyes as soon as you fire each shot towards the next target. If you have built up the shot calling we have been working on, you will know if you hit the steel without ever hearing or seeing the steel move. Add steel to the point you fail. If you don't have steel available to you, may I suggest you try cheap paper plates on sticks. Shoot it like it was steel. Call your shots, move your eyes, shoot them all, close your eyes & see if you can envision where each shot went as you broke it.

Conclusion

If you follow these drills & put in the time it takes to train your brain, you will finish a stage & be able to say positively "I hit all A" or "I have 3C" or whatever. You will know as you go that you have shot the steel & had good hits. You will make up less than acceptable shots without ever thinking "oops, gotta make that up". When you get to that point, where most of the time you know your hits, you can speed up your game. Time to push.

BUT build up your mind game first, then we go faster.

Final thoughts

These are some drills I've been thinking about for a while. If you let your mind cheat you, stop where you are & back up. Go faster, move your eyes sooner. You can't accept the feedback of seeing the hole in the target or seeing the steel fall or even slower, hearing the ring of the steel, that is cheating yourself & wasting your time in this exercise.

If you try these drills & see something that helps you I haven't put on here, please let me know. I have experienced pieces of these drills before. I've never started this at the beginning & worked through it. To be honest, I never had the ideas put into a format that I might use, with building blocks to build the skill. I've just picked up little pieces of it. On days when I'm "on", the steel shot calling is there. Some days when the paper shot calling is working, I know to make up a miss or a No shoot hit without a conscious thought of "make it up". Being able to do that regularly & consistently is the goal.

Ok, now how good a shooter you become is up to you, hopefully these lessons will help you get there sooner!

Mark Miller

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

When it becomes important enough, you will figure it out.

I don't disagree, old506, but I'm hoping to go beyond the conventional advice.

Goals

1 Learn to see exactly where on the target the gun is pointed when the shot breaks

2 Develop this skill with building lessons

3 Increase speed by developing this skill

4 Improve shooting on steel--you called the hit, you moved on without waiting for the steel to fall or ring

5 React with make-up shots immediately without having to see the holes on the target or the holes on No shoot target

6 Know after you shoot a stage, how you shot on each target before it is scored

Even when I shoot well, I find that I have very little memory of how I shot each target -- unless something "memorable" happened.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Mark.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

I remembered a point Brian made about comps and following the sight, so I just looked it back up:

Aside from the benefits of better balance and a greater distance between the sights, the main effect of the comp is that it allows you to mount the front sight on the barrel. If the gun isn't fitted up that well, you can aim the gun more accurately because the sight is staying with the barrel. But the really important thing that gets missed out on by people who mount their front sight on the slide instead of the comp is that the comp-mounted sight doesn't cycle with the slide. It's easier to keep the sight in focus if it's only moving up and down instead of also back and forth. It can appear that you keep a slide-mounted sight in focus, but it's much harder and requires a much more refined focus than it does with a fixed sight just popping up and down. The very first thing I noticed when I shot my first comp gun was the non-cycling front sight.

Practical Shooting, page 182[/Quote]

This raises the question of why production pistols don't regularly put the front sight on a non-cycling part of the gun.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Not-So-Mad Matt

[old506]

O.K., you made me do it. Here it is, the mother of all posts.......

benos, on 23 August 2004 - 03:06 PM, said:

Because of the high-speed nature of IPSC shooting, if one comes to IPSC without a good background in the fundamentals of shooting, I've noticed a pattern during the learning curve.

Typically we start out blazing away, so we never really learn what it means or the importance of calling each shot precisely. Then after shooting for some time, maybe years, we start to realize that hitting the targets is more important than going fast, because "you can't miss fast enough to win." During this hosing phase, we ingrain bad visual habits because the targets do not challenge our weaknesses, and after some time we just kinda point shoot most everything. Then, as we start to open up to the fact that calling is important, we're so used to looking at the wrong things while "going fast," it feels like we must really slow down in order to see enough of the sights to call the shots. At this point it becomes a psychological battle, because there's no way we're going to shoot slower.

At this point hearing a good explanation and believing in it become a factor. Furthermore, you must prove it to yourself in practice before you'll ever trust enough to do it in a match.

Spread 6 or 8 targets around the range between 8 and 15 yards, and stick no-shoots, right next to the A-boxes, on a couple of them. Draw and shoot one shot on each left to right, right down your time, then do the same thing right to left, then repeat both strings for a total of four strings. Then figure your score using the time-plus method, adding .2 of a second for each point dropped. Do this forever or until you figure out what you must do and how you must see in order to get the best score.

be

[old506]

Here it is, the second best post on this entire website.......

benos, on 17 May 2004 - 03:12 PM, said:

Henny,

The bigger your pool of experience, the more you have to draw from.

I don't think we can logically fathom the depth of this pool because the conscious mind has the capacity to remember sooooo much, and although we are only able to consciously recall a small fragment of what passes through the screen of experience, we are able to act out, and do, continuously, much more than we can ever remember consciously. For that reason, the simple act of practicing/shooting while aware is tremendously beneficial. There's a lot of truth to "the more you practice, the better you get." And if you practice poorly, like not attempting to call every shot you fire, your motor skills still benefit from the simple act of firing the pistol.

But more specifically, if you have not learned, at a conscious level, what you must see and do to hit a specific target, there's not much chance you will, especially under pressure. That's why the pro has trained and knows what it takes to hit any target under any circumstances. At that point it's not possible for him to be surprised.

You must train for a considerable amount of time just to ingrain the motor skills required to quickly pivot and shoot various targets at different distances. But that's only a fragment of one's training, of which the point is to enable one to execute the fundamentals more quickly. Depending on how you apply yourself, it will also take some time to train yourself to know for certain what is personally required to hit any target at any distance and in any circumstance, quickly.

So endless dryfiring and range time is indispensable. Just as is match experience. Because matches will show you unknown (to you) weak points in your training.

So to nutshell it - it helps if you know from the beginning what is most important. And then gear the majority of your training toward mastering that, until no doubts remain. The greatest skill you can develop is to know where the bullet went before it hits the target. Then continued training will enable you to do that more quickly. So every aspect of one's training is important, and adds experience to the pool. Dryfiring, range time, analyzing, and match experience all contribute to one's advancement.

Or you might think of it like this - If you don't know for certain what you need to see and do in order to hit a certain target, every time, doing it on demand won't be much different than rolling the dice. And every single thing you do to that end is beneficial.

be

[old506]

When those two posts become important enough to figure it out, you will win everything there is to win.....

[old506]

The greatest (partial) sentence in all of the above is..... "until no doubts remain"

This is shooting utopia, silverado, and a trophy at nationals.

Edited March 27, 2012 by old506

[mlmiller1]

Even when I shoot well, I find that I have very little memory of how I shot each target -- unless something "memorable" happened.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Mark.

No problem, hope you can find something of value in there.

Have you ever shot a stage & without ever hearing your scores called or the time, you knew you shot it well? That is what you can develop with these drills. I belive if you give these lessons a try, you will have a much better memory or idea of how you shot each target. Let your subconscious do what it does best, record & direct. Then learn to access the memory part & support the subconscious with proper mechanical skills.

Unfortunately there is no "shortcut" or quick answer to calling shots unless you can call learning proper skills early in your shooting career a shortcut.

MLM

[sirveyr]

Wow, this is a great read! I relly enjoyed those old posts by Brian.

One of the things that really helped me understand shot calling was the very first time that I shot a handgun in a dark house. We always talk about seeing the sights at the exact moment the gun fires, but it is hard to do sometimes. However, when shooting in low light, the muzzle flash creates this "snapshot" of that exact moment. I know this isn't available to everyone, but I feel that it is very helpful in learning what that "snapshot" sight picture looks like.

[benos]

Knowing exactly where each shot will hit the target, before it hits the target, is the single most important thing concept the shooter must master, and the single most important job the shooter must always do.

be

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

I don't disagree (at all) with the consensus that (1) learning to follow through and to call shots takes a lot of practice, but (2) it's worth it -- but not all practice is equally good, I'm sure we'd all agree. Most of the advice -- which is good advice, don't get me wrong -- amounts to, really, really try to watch the front sight from before you break the shot, through the break, and then through its rise and fall.

The specific methods suggested include slow precision firing (groups, dot torture, etc.) and faster shooting (steel plates, not waiting to hear a hit).

What caught my eye and led to my original post though is that some excellent shooters have mentioned seeing the sight's movement much more clearly when it was a red-dot sight on a compensated "open" gun or even an ordinary iron sight mounted on a comp, rather than the slide. If that kind of equipment can speed up the early learning of how to call shots and follow through, perhaps that should be standard operating procedure. Once you've got the hang of it, then you can transfer that skill to the more challenging task of following an uncompensated gun's iron sights.

Agree? Disagree? Have other shooters had especially good or bad experiences learning to follow through and call shots with dots or comps? Or .22s or airsoft guns?

Edited March 28, 2012 by Not-So-Mad Matt

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

One of the things that really helped me understand shot calling was the very first time that I shot a handgun in a dark house. We always talk about seeing the sights at the exact moment the gun fires, but it is hard to do sometimes. However, when shooting in low light, the muzzle flash creates this "snapshot" of that exact moment. I know this isn't available to everyone, but I feel that it is very helpful in learning what that "snapshot" sight picture looks like.

Interesing observation, sirveyr. I noticed the same thing shooting in a lane at an indoor range with mediocre lighting. I still had better luck calling my shots with a .22 though -- even though it felt less like a snapshot and more like a short video.

[old506]

I think you are over thinking it a little maybe? It really doesn't matter how you find it or what you do to find it, you just have to find it. There isn't going to be an SOP because everyone is different and some people won't get it anyway. I, like you, tried to find it, hunted for it, looked for a drill to show me, looked for a post to show me and there wasn't (isn't) one. Eventually what worked for me was that I told myself "I call my shots, that's what I do" (Lanny Bassham). I did this before practice, I did this before bed, I did this driving to a match, I did it when I was on deck, I told myself every frickin time I had a chance to tell myself (and still do). I think it was more mental for me really, it was in front of my face (eyes) the whole time, I just wasn't "seeing" it. It became important enough to me and when it did everything was focused on finding it and that's when I found it. The road is going to be a little different for everyone but thee most important thing is that you find it. The second most important thing is to not do anything else until you find it.

That's what is so great about Brian's posts above and why they are bar none the two best posts on this website. In all of the debates of a 5" v. a 6" and titegroup versus n320 or whatever, nothing else matters in our sport but those two posts. Learn to and call your shots, practice everything until you master it and at the same time build your subconscious so that everything that can possibly be thrown at you (at a match) has been mastered.

What it doesn't say is what the SOP is to get there, what gun is the best to do it with or how much weight you need to lose to get there. What it doesn't say is almost important as what it does say.

Edited March 28, 2012 by old506

[old506]

Oh, by the way, thanks for asking because I forget about those two posts from time to time and whenever I get back to them it is like pouring the high octane stuff all over and lighting a match. In fact I am thinking about writing them down in my own handwriting and reading them before LF/DF. Thanks.