PatUSAF Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Hey Everyone, So I'm doing some hand loads with a new sample batch of Berrys 124gr plated FP's I'm loading these for my M&P Pro So I did some test rounds to get the OAL dialed in and after that crimped them to check the length and fit in my barrel. To my surprise and annoyance the rounds weren't seating and dropping freely from the barrel They seated "ok" but weren't as nice as my other round nose or even lead FP rounds. I checked the case diameter and it was showing at about .378 to .380 which is really wide, other rounds I pressed up were coming in at around .375-.376 which I like. So now the problem is, how do I bring these down in the diameter? The berrys bullets are running .355-.356 and don't seem to be too fat. I tried increasing the crimp, but now I'm worried about smashing the bullets in the case, regardless after increasing the crimp it was still the same diameter and wasn't really helping....I'm at a loss Please help!! Pat, NJ USAF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatUSAF Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 Ok so as I'm sitting at work (funny they call it work, cause I spend half my day reading posts on this website!) I'm thinking maybe its not the crimp thats the big issue. Should I be seating the bullet deeper? I have it press in right now at about 1.35-1.4 on the OAL Does the fact that its a Flat point make this something to consider? I didn't think so at first cause my lead Flat points chamber just fine at the same length. Pat USAF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatUSAF Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 Ok so as I'm sitting at work (funny they call it work, cause I spend half my day reading posts on this website!) I'm thinking maybe its not the crimp thats the big issue. Should I be seating the bullet deeper? I have it press in right now at about 1.35-1.4 on the OAL Does the fact that its a Flat point make this something to consider? I didn't think so at first cause my lead Flat points chamber just fine at the same length. Pat USAF I meant 1.13 - 1.14 (stupid work keeps taking my mind off of the important things in life!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reptoid Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) Whenever you change bullets, you need to do the OAL drop test in your barrel starting too long and decreasing a little at a time until you find the length with that bullet that just chambers fully, then shorten slightly. When you find that length, write it down for each type of bullet for future reference. Seating depth will/can change with every different bullet due to Dia., ogive shape, length and shape of nose, etc. Berrys will also tend to be slightly larger dia. than jacketed bullets like PD's, as will cast if you try those later. Part of the cool thing about reloading is you get to taylor your loads for what works best in your pistol Don Edited March 21, 2012 by reptoid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Hey Pat. .378 does not sound all that out of whack. I stay around .377 or so. .356 is on the larger size for 9mm. Lead/ moly etc that I have bought are right at .356. Montana Golds by contrast are right at .3545. So the round will be a little fatter technically. Don't try crimping them too much more as that may actually loosen neck tension and potentially cause setback. I would load a dummy a little shorter at your current crimp and drop it in the barrel. Bullets with shoulders must be seated deeper in my experience since the shoulder will hit the lands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLSlim Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) Your OAL at 1.13 sounds okay. With the Berry's diameter at 0.355, you shouldn't have any worry crimping down to 0.376. Increase your crimp a bit and check the barrel fit. If you are concerned about overcrimp and damage to the plating, pull one of the bullets after you've increased the crimp to see if you've cut into the plating. I would guess you'll be fine. Be sure your dies are set up properly if you tried to increase the crimp and saw no change in diameter. Edited March 21, 2012 by FLSlim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcracco Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) Two points; the bullet shouldn't touch any part of the barrel until you pull the trigger and don't crimp your ammo. A loaded 9mm with a case dia of .378" is fine. The case has to headspace on the mouth which means the bullet has to be seated far enough to allow the case to move all the way forward till the chamber stops it. The bullet should not contact the chamber or rifling. In my mind the crimp isn't a crimp at all. All you are looking to do is remove the bell on the case and make the case mouth nice and square so it smacks up against the shoulder in the chamber. I "crimp" only until I don't see a gap between the inside edge of the brass and the bullet (using an eye loupe). BTW, my OAL is 1.075" in my gun using BB 124gn HBFP. I sound like a broken record but I don't know how anyone can tell you what your OAL should be for your application. Edited March 21, 2012 by mcracco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) the bullet shouldn't touch any part of the barrel until you pull the trigger What do you mean? Edited March 21, 2012 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesewhiz Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 mcracco is correct. A crimp diameter on a 9mm is a little tough to use as a gage. Case wall thickness varies between headstamps, so with mixed brass that almost certain OD will make the ID/crimp more or less depending on the wall thickness of the case. The case walls at the opening should be even and flush with the sides of the case, the opening somewhat sealing around the bullet. I use my thumb as a gage, I don't want a sharp outside edge but the case at the mouth should feel as if it could shave wax off a candle easily. You can tell if you are overcrimping a Berry's bullet (any plated actually), pull a completed round and if you see any mark around the bullet from the case mouth, you are overcrimping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 . A crimp diameter on a 9mm is a little tough to use as a gage. Case wall thickness varies between headstamps Which is why extreme reloaders sort brass. Dies are set for certain brands of brass on my press. Not only are case walls different but some also produce different oals and PF's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesewhiz Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Sarge that's why I have five bins in my garage and they are big bins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbauer67 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Sounds like the seating plug in you're seating die is not Guiding the bullet into the case properly. I had this problem when I first started loading 9mm. I am curious, are you using lee dies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcracco Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 the bullet shouldn't touch any part of the barrel until you pull the trigger What do you mean? Trying to illustrate the point that when a round is in the chamber, the bullet has been seated far enough so that it is not touching the chamber wall or barrel rifling. The case mouth stops the forward movement of the round, not the bullet. I think PatUSAF is focusing on case diameter and the real issue is bullet seating depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcracco Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Here we go: SAAMI 9mm Luger: Max Cartridge / Min Chamber Dimensions Note: OAL: 1.000" to 1.169"...quite a spread Cartridge can be .381" dia. at mouth and .391" dia. at base There is a .354" dia 'lead in' to rifling....this is where a .355" dia bullet gets snug if it is seated too long Twist: 1 in 10! S&W is 1 in 18.75, SL is 1 in 16, KKM is 1 in 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatUSAF Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 So im pretty sure I solved my issues, I think I just had an idea of how long I thought the OAL should be on this round since it worked in my RN's and lead rounds. I decreased the length last night on a couple of cases and they worked just fine. Talk about a rookie mistake, I don't know what I was so drawn to try and make the length specific to what some of these reloading manuals have for OAL. It seems to me like those reloading guides(such as VV which I'm using)don't span the gamut of bullet designs in regards to the shape, they only seem to focus on round nose and hollow point bullets, when god knows half the people that reload for handguns that require accuracy don't use round nose that often. But no matter I figured it out once again with the overwhelming help of users here on this great site! PatUSAF AIR POWER! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p5200 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 If I remember correctly, my KKM 9mm barrel has a 1:20" twist rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reptoid Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Whenever you change bullets, you need to do the OAL drop test in your barrel starting too long and decreasing a little at a time until you find the length with that bullet that just chambers fully, then shorten slightly. When you find that length, write it down for each type of bullet for future reference. Seating depth will/can change with every different bullet due to Dia., ogive shape, length and shape of nose, etc. Berrys will also tend to be slightly larger dia. than jacketed bullets like PD's, as will cast if you try those later. Part of the cool thing about reloading is you get to taylor your loads for what works best in your pistol Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatUSAF Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 what are the disadvantages/problems with pressing the bullet to a shorter OAL? Say I seated it at 1.14 as compared to SAMMI minimum dimensions, would the smaller round have feeding problems or extracting problems? I have heard how the longer the round the better the accuracy, is this because it has less distance to be pushed out of the case? Enlighten me! Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBBB Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 1) Decreasing the COAL will decrease the case capacity which will increase pressure. If you are looking at published data and load to a shorter COAL you may not be able to safely use the published maximums. 2) COAL can have an impact on the reliability of feeding. This an individual gun/model thing. I've had more luck solving feeding problems by going longer rather than shorter but I don't know if this is really a general rule or just what I've experienced. 3) In between the time the bullet leaves the case and hits the rifling there is nothing holding it straight. There is a belief by some that the longer this space is the greater the chance there is for the bullet to get crooked before it finally contacts the rifling which may have a negative impact on accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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