Define "Hip Bone"...

[Sarge]

[beltjones]

Paging bobmysterious!

Damn, I knew I shouldn't have clicked on this thread.

From my experience I can tell you that the hipbone was the furthest forward point, not necessarily the peak, of the bone. Line up a plane 90 degrees straight off of that point and that's basically where the measurement is checked from. To be safe, and to avoid being poked, just use the outer seam of your pants or the pocket as an index point. Roughly 3 o'clock on your waist. It's a tough and subjective rule to call and enforce, so just err on the side of caution. Or do what I did. I bought an Open gun this afternoon.

Or you could push your luck and come challenge my title. After all, I am the defending Open Champion (at the Limited/Production Nationals).

yeah, my Limited gun is on order. The 3# trigger pull nonsense and your experience at Nats definitely had something to do with my decision to dump production starting 2013. That, and the loads and loads of illegal barrels, illegal parts, etc I saw at Production Nationals (and yet you were the only one bumped to Open... but that's another thread).

[Sin-ster]

Damn, I knew I shouldn't have clicked on this thread.

From my experience I can tell you that the hipbone was the furthest forward point, not necessarily the peak, of the bone. Line up a plane 90 degrees straight off of that point and that's basically where the measurement is checked from. To be safe, and to avoid being poked, just use the outer seam of your pants or the pocket as an index point. Roughly 3 o'clock on your waist. It's a tough and subjective rule to call and enforce, so just err on the side of caution. Or do what I did. I bought an Open gun this afternoon.

Or you could push your luck and come challenge my title. After all, I am the defending Open Champion (at the Limited/Production Nationals).

Sorry for your misfortune-- but congrats on your title! I hope to not have to rob you of it this year!

That's a very solid and descriptive bit of info, and I seriously appreciate the input!

For reference, where were your pouches located that got you bumped to Open? Behind the hip bone itself, just past the 90 degree line at the edges I would suspect?

[bobmysterious]

When I put on my rig I generally index just slightly off of my hipbones and then wrap the belt around from there. The RO decided the smallest micro millimeter of the tip of my forward pouch was in front of the imaginary 90 degree line. And when the RO decides that - you get poked.

@ 7:37 on the video is the stage where it happened.

[bbbean]

Or you could push your luck and come challenge my title. After all, I am the defending Open Champion (at the Limited/Production Nationals).

A win is a win!

[badchad]

When I put on my rig I generally index just slightly off of my hipbones and then wrap the belt around from there. The RO decided the smallest micro millimeter of the tip of my forward pouch was in front of the imaginary 90 degree line. And when the RO decides that - you get poked.

Someone tell me if I am wrong, but I thought you were supposed to get a chance to correct the infraction, not just get bumped to Open.

[Sin-ster]

When I put on my rig I generally index just slightly off of my hipbones and then wrap the belt around from there. The RO decided the smallest micro millimeter of the tip of my forward pouch was in front of the imaginary 90 degree line. And when the RO decides that - you get poked.

Someone tell me if I am wrong, but I thought you were supposed to get a chance to correct the infraction, not just get bumped to Open.

As I remember it...

For the 2" from the inner belt rule, yes-- you get a chance to correct it.

For the gear position rule, no-- you're moved immediately.

I'd cite the rules, but I don't have my book handy right now and haven't memorized them all just yet.

My guess is that they deem the 2" rule easy to break by accident, and not really a huge advantage. The gear position rule is pretty easy to avoid with some diligence (once you know how to define "hip bone"...), and if you've already shot a few stages, it's hard to justify letting you stay in your Division. (As per poor bobmysterious, who was into Day 3 at Nats when he got moved...)

[Skydiver]

When I put on my rig I generally index just slightly off of my hipbones and then wrap the belt around from there. The RO decided the smallest micro millimeter of the tip of my forward pouch was in front of the imaginary 90 degree line. And when the RO decides that - you get poked.

Someone tell me if I am wrong, but I thought you were supposed to get a chance to correct the infraction, not just get bumped to Open.

As I remember it...

For the 2" from the inner belt rule, yes-- you get a chance to correct it.

For the gear position rule, no-- you're moved immediately.

I'd cite the rules, but I don't have my book handy right now and haven't memorized them all just yet.

My guess is that they deem the 2" rule easy to break by accident, and not really a huge advantage. The gear position rule is pretty easy to avoid with some diligence (once you know how to define "hip bone"...), and if you've already shot a few stages, it's hard to justify letting you stay in your Division. (As per poor bobmysterious, who was into Day 3 at Nats when he got moved...)

I got a little bit of time... I think the USPSA rules you are looking for are:

5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor's handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor's belt, the measurement shall be taken in the following manner:

...

5.2.5.2 Any competitor who fails the foregoing test will be required to immediately adjust his holster or equipment to comply with the requirements of the relevant Division.

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

I'm not too familiar with the IPSC rules, but as I recall the old combined 2004 rules allowed for correction without an automatic bump to open. I don't know if that was still true after splitting the rule book, and what the state of the rules are in the 2012 edition.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Skydiver

[Sin-ster]

That's them!

So IOW, if you're out-of-spec on your gear positioning at "Make Ready" (or have shot a previous stage already), you're in Open.

If you're over the 2" mark from the inner belt, you better do some fixin' lickity-split!

[Schutzenmeister]

I got a little bit of time... I think the USPSA rules you are looking for are:

5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor's handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor's belt, the measurement shall be taken in the following manner:

...

5.2.5.2 Any competitor who fails the foregoing test will be required to immediately adjust his holster or equipment to comply with the requirements of the relevant Division.

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

I'm not too familiar with the IPSC rules, but as I recall the old combined 2004 rules allowed for correction without an automatic bump to open. I don't know if that was still true after splitting the rule book, and what the state of the rules are in the 2012 edition.

The IPSC rules read word-for-word the same on this issue ... You should note, the key issue for a bump to open is NOT that the equipment is out of place while walking around, but rather DURING the CoF. Most ROs (both US NROI and IROA) I know will at least try to make a comment prior to your attempt at the CoF if they think it's an issue. I don't personally know any of them that wait until the buzzer so they can go "GOTCHA!"

[badchad]

The IPSC rules read word-for-word the same on this issue ...

I know at the World Shoot they policed this pretty hard, but they let people fix their belt and move their gear rearward if necessary. There was some interpretation going on as a lot of the ROs checked, with shooters passed at some stages but told to move their gear on others.

You should note, the key issue for a bump to open is NOT that the equipment is out of place while walking around, but rather DURING the CoF. Most ROs (both US NROI and IROA) I know will at least try to make a comment prior to your attempt at the CoF if they think it's an issue. I don't personally know any of them that wait until the buzzer so they can go "GOTCHA!"

Evidently there is one that will.

[Nik Habicht]

That's them!

So IOW, if you're out-of-spec on your gear positioning at "Make Ready" (or have shot a previous stage already), you're in Open.

If you're over the 2" mark from the inner belt, you better do some fixin' lickity-split!

Actually because the distance is now listed in Appendices D1-6 (item 10) -- it's welcome to Open for violating the division requirements in all divisions other than Open.....

If you're already in Open, well, there's no rule that says you shoot for no score.....

[Nik Habicht]

The IPSC rules read word-for-word the same on this issue ...

I know at the World Shoot they policed this pretty hard, but they let people fix their belt and move their gear rearward if necessary. There was some interpretation going on as a lot of the ROs checked, with shooters passed at some stages but told to move their gear on others.

You should note, the key issue for a bump to open is NOT that the equipment is out of place while walking around, but rather DURING the CoF. Most ROs (both US NROI and IROA) I know will at least try to make a comment prior to your attempt at the CoF if they think it's an issue. I don't personally know any of them that wait until the buzzer so they can go "GOTCHA!"

Evidently there is one that will.

I wouldn't -- unless the shooter confesses they shot a prior stage that way. If I'm going to make a call, I need to be certain that the event in question occurred. I do that by either witnessing it, or hearing the shooter tell me they did it.

If I see someone walk up to my stage with gear out of place, my assumption is that their range bag bumped it -- and I request that they fix their gear....

[Sin-ster]

Actually because the distance is now listed in Appendices D1-6 (item 10) -- it's welcome to Open for violating the division requirements in all divisions other than Open.....

If you're already in Open, well, there's no rule that says you shoot for no score.....

Doesn't 5.2.5 and more specifically, 5.2.5.2 stipulate otherwise?

As in... it literally says that you're not immediately bumped? And is referred to in E2, which illustrates the measuring process for "All Divisions"?

[Nik Habicht]

Actually because the distance is now listed in Appendices D1-6 (item 10) -- it's welcome to Open for violating the division requirements in all divisions other than Open.....

If you're already in Open, well, there's no rule that says you shoot for no score.....

Doesn't 5.2.5 and more specifically, 5.2.5.2 stipulate otherwise?

As in... it literally says that you're not immediately bumped? And is referred to in E2, which illustrates the measuring process for "All Divisions"?

It's a genuine rules problem, that requires a fix --- because that could literally be read both ways.....

And Open should be addressed -- ideally by removing the limitation, and allowing for experimentation in holster design....

[badchad]

It's a genuine rules problem, that requires a fix --- because that could literally be read both ways.....

Given that belts can shift a bit, or be put on a little to the left or right, and given that every CRO has an opportunity to look at everyone's gear before they shoot a stage, I think it's bogus to bump a guy for this after he shoots. Till now I had never even heard of this happening.

Now if the shooter had been warned on a previous stage and moved his gear back, only to reposition in forward again for the next stage, then he should be crucified.

[Skydiver]

It's a genuine rules problem, that requires a fix --- because that could literally be read both ways.....

Given that belts can shift a bit, or be put on a little to the left or right, and given that every CRO has an opportunity to look at everyone's gear before they shoot a stage, I think it's bogus to bump a guy for this after he shoots. Till now I had never even heard of this happening.

Now if the shooter had been warned on a previous stage and moved his gear back, only to reposition in forward again for the next stage, then he should be crucified.

The onus is on the shooter to ensure the consistent positioning of their equipment. See:

5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. ...

[West Texas Granny]

It's a genuine rules problem, that requires a fix --- because that could literally be read both ways.....

Given that belts can shift a bit, or be put on a little to the left or right, and given that every CRO has an opportunity to look at everyone's gear before they shoot a stage, I think it's bogus to bump a guy for this after he shoots. Till now I had never even heard of this happening.

Now if the shooter had been warned on a previous stage and moved his gear back, only to reposition in forward again for the next stage, then he should be crucified.

The onus is on the shooter to ensure the consistent positioning of their equipment. See:

5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. ...

Well everything can be right at the start of the COF and before you finish things can be out of wack with all of the running,sitting,jumping,prone positions or other activities that require movement by the shooter. Therefore it is only logical to remove this rule since rule 6.2.5.1, key word being during, you will be moved to Open. All of this means a shooter using Rule 6.2.5.1 can have a competitor bumped to Open if their gear shifted during the course of fire. Not very sportsman like but very legal under the rule.

Plus Rule 5.2.5.2 seems to be in conflict with Rule 6.2.5.1. One says you have a chance to readjust and the other does not offer that chance.

Edited March 8, 2012 by West Texas Granny

[lugnut]

I wouldn't -- unless the shooter confesses they shot a prior stage that way. If I'm going to make a call, I need to be certain that the event in question occurred. I do that by either witnessing it, or hearing the shooter tell me they did it.

If I see someone walk up to my stage with gear out of place, my assumption is that their range bag bumped it -- and I request that they fix their gear....

You sound like the type of RO this sport needs more of. I agree with you 100% on this. I don't know anyone that would want to eliminate a competitor for something like this... I understand rules are rules but come on!

[Skydiver]

It's a genuine rules problem, that requires a fix --- because that could literally be read both ways.....

Given that belts can shift a bit, or be put on a little to the left or right, and given that every CRO has an opportunity to look at everyone's gear before they shoot a stage, I think it's bogus to bump a guy for this after he shoots. Till now I had never even heard of this happening.

Now if the shooter had been warned on a previous stage and moved his gear back, only to reposition in forward again for the next stage, then he should be crucified.

The belt is not suppose to shift.

5.2.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at waist level. The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops.

As an aside: Although my recent posts all seem to make me look like a fascist about belt and equipment position, I'm actually on the side of a more lenient view of things as evidenced by my other posts in other threads where I try to give the shooter the most leeway as possible. Between stages, I try to take shooters aside and warn them that it looks like a gun looks like it maybe too low or mags that look too far out/forward. As RO's we're supposed to help shooters achieve their goals, and if that goal is to make it to higher level competitions, get them and their gear ready for it.

[Sin-ster]

Man, my belt can be affixed as securely as possible and the gear still might shift.

It doesn't matter how tightly you cinch it to me, my body has absolutely nothing that'll hold it securely in place.

[atbarr]

I use four pouches, they are all tied together with one long piece of Velcro. I also put Velcro on the back of my holster. Absolutely no shifting.

[Sin-ster]

I use four pouches, they are all tied together with one long piece of Velcro. I also put Velcro on the back of my holster. Absolutely no shifting.

I don't have one strip for all 5 pouches, but each pouch is velcro backed (industrial grade), as is the holster.

It's not so much the gear or the belt that can shift... as the entire set of pants/shorts.

[beltjones]

The thing that bothers me is that, looking through videos of past nationals, and looking at pictures of the 2011 super squad, there are quite a few people whose mag pouches and holsters appear to be on the point of their hips, if not beyond. How often do guys on the super squad get bumped to open for a mag pouch or holster infraction? Never. However, the rest of us have to (or at least should) be extra careful about how we place our gear lest our Nationals experience be ruined.

The point is that we should all follow the rules, but the ROs should enforce them fairly, too. If this RO had seen GMs and folks on the super squad with holsters out of position he should have bumped them to Open, but he didn't. The whole thing is very troubling.

[vluc]

Interesting topic as this is a bugaboo for me when I RO. Shooting production, you really are aware of this, and I've seen hipbones declared at Area matches that fit no anatomical chart I have ever seen.

Now that little extra space the shooter crams for is not going to beat any of us, but it is an annoyance and really should be clarified a tad better. Flex, harry, here is a rules topic for you to take up at the next BOD meeting. This takes up more time at matches than it needs to, and should be an automatic visual that in no way can be misinterpreted. Have some ideas on this and will share later.