Stage Provided Revolver

[Tman33_99]

I shot an usual stage this past weekend at a local match that I am sure would never withstand Tournament level scrunty. The stage was 25 rounds and included 4 steel and 11 ipsc targets. The start was sitting at table (table was angled towards side berm) loaded stage provided 38spl 5-shot revolver on table (factory ammo) and loaded competitor's weapon in holster. Upon start engage the 2 full IPSC targets w/2rds each from revolver and 1 partial IPSC w/1 rnd (these targets were just across the table). Put revolver back on table pointed towards side berm, draw and engage steel from box (box at the table) and the remaining targets as they become visable.

The MD make it very clear during walk through that any failure of the revolver should be considered range failure, and if the revolver was put down and not pointed towards the side berm, the RO should stop the shooter and consider it range failure. IE, this PISTOL is being considered RANGE EQUIPMENT The RO was also to make sure all 5 shots of the revolver were fired before putting the revolver down, to engage the steel and move downrange for the other targets.

Since the pisol is being considered range equipment the MD said the revolver does not come under rule 5.6.2 (only one gun used) for competitor's equipment. But this also creates a scoring issue in that the revolver SHOULD be scored minor.

This whole stage while fun, seemed a little unsafe, and very strange. Has anyone else seen a USPSA/IPSC stage like this one? How would you score the 1st 5 shots minor and the rest normally? I know they didn't worry about minor/major in the scoring of the stage but I think they should have.

Does anyone know any 14th Ed rule that prohibits this besides 5.6.2? There are not any multi-gun rules approved yet that I am aware of. Can a Pistol be considered range equipment?

[RogerT]

At a local handgun macth we had a stage that in the end included an M16 on a table, loaded (full mag) and with safety engaged that should be used to engage three paper targets with two hits each. Fun and unusual for us handgunners, but this was a club match with level 1 intentions.

[Vince Pinto]

Tman,

You're perfectly correct that the subject stage would definitely not pass muster by the IPSC Level III Course of Fire Committee, nor would it receive IPSC Level III sanctioning, because Rule 5.1.9 (which replaces former Rule 5.6.2) does not make any exceptions whatsoever, to wit:

5.1.9 A competitor must never use or wear on his person more than one handgun during a course of fire (see Rule 10.5.7).

End of story. No "ifs", "buts" or "maybes".

And for the MD to declare "range equipment failure" means it would also apply if the revolver was not placed facing the side berm (e.g. hence it could potentially face directly uprange or be dropped onto the ground). Moreover, if you declared any gun to be "range equipment", how can you then issue a match DQ if the competitor breaks 90 degrees and/or causes the gun to point uprange during a COF?

This concept is so utterly unsafe, idiotic and irresponsible, I'm stunned and lost for words.

[Tman33_99]

Vince,

I thank you for your direct response as it was my feeling as well. Several shooters brought up rule 5.6.2 as a rule, but were overruled because the gun was "range equipment". Will be better prepared in the future.

By the way Vince, When are you going to stop being surprised at the ..... how to say this politely...... the strange things people do

[Nolan]

A couple of our local clubs have had stages very similar to this one. IPSC legal or not they were a change from the usual stages. One stage provided a shotgun to break several clay targets before drawing the pistol and finishing the stage. I think 3 shots were required from the shotgun and if I remember correctly when finished it was handed to an assistant (would that be the AARO.) The revolver stages that I remember we had to open the cylinder and dump the empties before placing the revolver in a foam lined steel box, then we either retrieved or drew our pistols and finished the stage.

I've alway thought it would be fun to have a stage where the shooting order was determined by random drawing. Then first shooter would use the second shooter's gun, etc... and the last shooter using the gun of the first shooter. In other words everybody would shoot the stage with somebody else's gun. Of course there would always be the wiseacre with a screwdriver handy to 'adjust' his sights

Nolan

[Jim Norman]

What if?

You ran a stage where everyone used the same gun, say a model 60 S&W, .38 SPl, all factory loads, maybe one reload allowed, make it Virginia Count. 10 rounds. Put the ammo in a bucket, no speed loaders, and only 4 paper and two steel, Yeah I know, no steel in VC. Another rule that makes no sense.

Set the array as Paper, Paper, Steel, Steel, Paper Paper. Simple, just fun.

I think we sometimes forget why we do this. It is supposed to be fun! No one here is going to make a living off USPSA/IPSC.

Jim

[Tman33_99]

Paper, Paper, Steel, Steel, Paper Paper. Simple, just fun.

Gawd NO....I have enough trouble with steel with own damn gun...

OK....Jim that does sound fun, and would comply with the rules.....I think it would anyway....but you know Open shooters would cry like crazy

[Vince Pinto]

OK....Jim that does sound fun, and would comply with the rules.....I think it would anyway....but you know Open shooters would cry like crazy

Sure, provided that if the gun breaks, you get scored "as shot", otherwise you're back to declaring the gun as range equipment. I'll raise this issue with the Rules Committee to see how they feel about firearms being so declared, but I suspect we might need a rule clarification.

But hang on a minute. Just think of the money everyone could save if every stage, everywhere in the world, provided an official stage gun. No need to buy your own gun, ammo, holster, mag pouches, reloading kit or anything else. Each range could just buy a bunch of el cheapo guns and you're good to go.

Now that would separate the men from the boys, now wouldn't it? And imagine the potential boost in membership if individual $$$ are taken out of the equation. In fact, we could even get gun manufacturers to sponsor stages by simply giving loaner guns, so there'd be no cost at all to clubs or match organisers and the manufacturers would save a bundle too.

I'll take the idea to the IPSC General Assembly, right after I take my medication to stop the little voices in my head speaking Klingon ...........

[Jim Norman]

Ignoring the lame attempts at humor. Supose you wanted for certain situations to have a real run to see who really is the best. In racing they call it IROC, all the cars are as close to identical as you can make them. In USPSA we could if we wanted to, run a match using Sponser supplied guns, mags and ammo. I would think Production Division would be the place for this. And yes, it would seperate the wheat from the chaff.

I would not advocate this as a regular match, nor would I expect that the rules would be altered to encourage it in anyway (pay attention here Vince) But it would be a telling experiance once every couple years.

I wonder who would like to lose a year of their life to set this up and run it?

Jim

[Vince Pinto]

I wonder who would like to lose a year of their life to set this up and run it?

Been there, (almost) done that with the planned (but failed to materialise) "IPSC Masters" a few years back, provisionally scheduled at PASA Park. My concept was to determine who was the best all-round IPSC handgun shooter in the world.

Every competitor must shoot 25 stages, with 5 stages specifically designed for each of the 5 divisions (i.e. 5 stages each for Open, Standard, Modified, Production, Revolver), and of course you would be required to shoot each stage with a division compliant gun. Course design would be a breeze, because the 5 Revolver stages would be revolver-neutral and reasonably "up close & personal", while the 5 Open Division stages would require tighter and longer shots, faster movers and so on.

The RO assigned to each stage would have an easy job to do, as he would only have to worry about a single division equipment check and rules knowledge on his stage, because (for argument's sake), Stage 16 is a Production Division only stage, so everyone must comply with PD rules on that stage. And the total available stage points for each division would be identical, to balance things out.

If you had your own gun for each stage, knock yourself out, but if you didn't, the major manufacturers would provide loaner guns. For example, S&W could sponsor the 5 Revolver stages and loan us, say, 3 identical guns per stage (1 primary and 2 backup guns). However if a gun failed, you get scored "as shot" (i.e. no reshoots for "REF", because the gun was not declared to be range equipment). And talk about a real "proving ground" for the loaner guns!

Just imagine - wouldn't it be a hoot seeing guys like Eric, TGO, Todd etc. shooting 5 different guns against each other?

The concept was generally embraced but scheduling conflicts with other planned matches at the time caused the "IPSC Masters" to be cancelled. I'd like to resurrect the idea again some day in the future and, subject to IPSC General Assembly, it could be another Level IV or V Championship.

[GENE S]

I beleave that it was in 1992, when my wife Ann and I were at the

nationals that Ann shot the Lady Smith match befor the Nationals.

There they provided her with a a rev to shoot half way through

a stage. She had to unload her gun, pick up the rev, load it and

put two into three targets, not more that 6 feet away.

There was also a stage that S & W provided her with semi-auto

of some kind to shoot in a stage that the were to jog through the

woods and engage targets on the way. The gun was in a belley

bag with spare mags that was carried in the ready contition.

It was a match for ladies only and they all had a great time,

with wine & cheese after the match in the club house.

Gene

[Patrick Sweeney]

At the risk of serious thread drift, I like Uncle Vinnie's idea. (OK, so I happen to have more than one each of the five guns needed, so I won't need a loaner.)

And I am not the least bit influenced by the entertainment value of the mental image of some of the top shooters trying to hose with a wheelgun.

The IROC+IPSC idea is one that first occured to me back in the mid 1980's. But then I've always been ahead of the pack. (Some might say I've been standing out in a field, but they are just jealous.)

And we used to use "stage guns" back in the Old Days. The rules were a lot less clear back then, so we'd just do it. But there are a lot of things we'd "just do" back then that I have no desire to do now.

[Paul B]

And we used to use "stage guns" back in the Old Days. The rules were a lot less clear back then, so we'd just do it. But there are a lot of things we'd "just do" back then that I have no desire to do now.

I sometimes get nostalgic about the freedom we had in the late 70's early 80's when a "stage" gun got used a lot. It was just pure fun and we did a lot of strange things in matches. We didn't know any better or did we? Of course, when I started cross draw holsters were also being used but only on dinosaur hunts.

[Vince Pinto]

Paul,

At the 2004 Australian Nationals over Easter, they played a DVD of the 1983 (?) nationals at the official drinking hole.

It was hilarious to see every start position requiring "the IPSC clasp" but it was bloody terrifying watching the courses of fire which had people shooting, then reholstering loaded guns, right before they tried scrambling over 2 metre high walls in a surprise course of fire

Quite a trip down memory lane, but I don't think I'd want to see such stages in this day and age.

[rhino]

Why does holstering a loaded gun frighten people who should be less emotional about such things? As long as that trigger finger stays out of the way, there aren't any problems.

[Carlos]

At the risk of slight thread drift, we shot an IDPA COF that began with a 5 shot S&W revolver loaded w/ 4 rounds of mild .38 special & the hammer down on the unloaded chamber (yes yes I am aware of this, that & the other safety feature of modern S&W revolvers that make the hammer down on an empty chamber unnecessary but can anyone argue it was LESS safe than loaded w/ 5 rounds??!?). See 1st IDPA at www.shootersparadise.com

The gun was loaded/unloaded by the RO & placed on a chair. Competitor's other gun was staged unloaded down range. Competitor had to engage 2 targets at very close range (using up all 4 rounds). No competitor failed to fire all 4 rounds; in the event that that had happened, the RO would have called Stop. The gun carried downrange and the competitor placed it in a box & retrieved his/her own gun, loaded it & engaged more targets.

No problem that I can see as far as IDPA is concerned (I consider myself an IDPA neophyte having shot exactly 2 IDPA matches). I also believe that under the circumstances, it was not an unsafe COF. However, as a USPSA club match designer, it seems unfortunate that a similar COF is apparently discouraged (if not outright banned by the rules) from a USPSA club match. Vince, what do you think?

[Flexmoney]

Legal or not...what are we testing in such a stage?

[Vince Pinto]

Why does holstering a loaded gun frighten people who should be less emotional about such things?  As long as that trigger finger stays out of the way, there aren't any problems.

Um, did you miss the rest of my sentence, when I said: ".... reholstering loaded guns, right before they tried scrambling over 2 metre high walls ....."? In other words, it's not the reholstering which concerned me - it was the fact that we had people climbing over walls and having the muzzle of their loaded and holstered gun pointing directly uprange in the process.

However, as a USPSA club match designer,  it seems unfortunate that a similar COF is apparently discouraged (if not outright banned by the rules) from a USPSA club match. Vince, what do you think?

Carlos, sure, the stage you described seems safe, however it's definitely not permitted under the following current rules:

5.1.7 Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. <snip> and

5.1.9 A competitor must never use or wear on his person more than one handgun during a course of fire (see Rule 10.5.7).

In any case, I don't know much about IPDA but what were the rules at the IDPA match if the revolver broke or if the competitor dropped the revolver? Did they treat the revolver as competitor equipment or range equipment?