Are there any good competitors who use an AK type?

[Correia]

Out of curiosity, are any of you aware of any good shooters who use an AK type rifle in 3gun competition with any sort of success? Do you think it is even feasible?

I've been using one for a few years now, and I do pretty good, but I have really only shot at the local club level, with few exceptions, and the only large matches I went to I did not do very good.

Just curious.

[Chriss Grube]

Nope AR's pretty much rule 3 gun.

[kellyn]

Quick answer NO.

However much to my chagrin, Dave Paasch did beat me once on the short range course at Rio Salado shooting an AK74.

[GRD]

Hey there Larry

- Gabe

[PacMan]

However much to my chagrin, Dave Paasch did beat me once on the short range course at Rio Salado shooting an AK74.

Now I know the reason why you don't like AKs

It is very tough to be competive with the AK design at longer distance. I have the AK just because it looks very "un P.C.", but don't use it at 3 gun matches.

[AK74]

At the local matches around here the ranges tend to be short, > 50 yards being the norm.

But a stock AK still is not very competitive. But I have been shooting an AK on and off just for fun and have done well on a local level. Here what I have done to make the AK work for me.

Home made extended mag release / the stock one is too short and stiff.

Sliver soldiered peep sight to rear of receiver cover / the stock open sights are slow for me.

Replaced pistol grip with one shaped like an AR, big improvement.

Went with 5.45x39, much quicker shooting then 7.62 version.

Trigger job.

The stamped receiver is much lighter then the milled model.

Stuff left to do: modify the safety so I can reach it with my trigger finger.

Now that Tactical division has become so popular I have a red dot sight (Russian Kobra) on order and will give that a try.

Its fun to shoot something different and I can hang with the AR guys, but past 100 yards the AR is the way to go.

[GvU]

The problem is mainly sights (U and post, very short sight radius). The best ones are the Sako type (or Valmet type) and the Galil, which use a similar sight as an AR15 (peep). Al the others need optics with a good mount. I believe that reasonable accuracy is possible, depending some on ammo.

The safety may be a pain in the butt, however bending the (spring) safety out or adding material under the safety (for instance a pull rope) may make it more servicable.

The Galil has a safety like the AR-series (Maybe a bit difficult to get in the US) and this might be the best AK of all, it is not a budget gun however.

Most people tend to be on the large side for this type of rifle, so a replacement stock may be very usefull.

Last year I placed some info on the Nordic Championship in Denmark some were shooting AK's (mainly from Finland, cheap ammo).

The complaint from one of the open shooters (with aluminium core bullets at 55 grains in 7.62x39 (Lapua)) was that the bold was very noticable in the shooting.

On a budget maybe you can make it work for you, best look for the cheaper ammo their. If not on a budget, maybe look for something else, however reliable the AK's are.

At the Borris open match this year (same range) there was no one from Finland and no one shot AK.

Most were shooting AR15-type (std sized and car-sized), SIG (PE 90) and a couple of HK's.

Hope this contributes to your search.

DVC, John

[Correia]

Hey Gabe.

I'm using a Vepr K in 7.62x39 with Krebs A2 sights on it. I'm asking because I'm hopelessly addicted to this sport, but I hate AR15s. I know they are great guns that absolutely dominate this sport, but I've just had some personal experiences that have left a bad taste in my mouth. Nothing against the gun, just a personal choice.

I was asking because I'm building up another Vepr, this time strictly for 3gun. I was just curious if anybody had ever accomplished anything of note with one. I'm going to try, but I wouldn't bet on it, seeing as that I'm really not very good, but the fun is in the effort.

[AK74]

How competitive your AK is going to be in a particular match will depend a lot on the courses of fire. I am positive there are some 3-gun matches out there that can be won with an AK.

Accuracy, this is the big one, if you cant do better then 4 moa with your AK it is not going to be competitive past 100 yards. I believe this is the number one reason we don’t see more AK's in IPSC 3 gun.

The AK's magazine catch, trigger, and sights can all be improved so that you give up very little to the AR's.

I am not that familiar with the VEPR, but if it's available in 5.45 or .223 I would recommend you give those caliber's a try; the recoil is going to be about the same as an AR.

Consider optics, a good red dot will not help your true Accuracy but it can shrink the groups that you actually shoot in a match, plus around here everyone is switching from Limited to Tactical class anyway.

Good luck and have fun.

[Carlos]

AK74 wrote: "Accuracy, this is the big one, if you cant do better then 4 moa with your AK it is not going to be competitive past 100 yards. I believe this is the number one reason we don’t see more AK's in IPSC 3 gun. "

Agreed. Average AK in the US these days has a crap 16 in. pencil-thin barrel. Around here (in the VA/MD Section) that 16" barrel can work since ranges are so short; I shot a 3 gun last weekend in Thurmont MD w/ my AK-47/ Bulgarian SLR-95; no shots were over 50 yards & toughest shot was maybe a 50 yard, upper A/B zone only; all 3 rounds were in there (did not need the make up shot). Out west where targets are out to 300 meters, the average 16" AK barrel w/ crap steel cased 7.62x39 ammo (minor no less) can't cut it against an AR-15.

That is the average in the US right now. What else exists in the world? The Israel Military Industries made Galil uses a very very accurate 18" hammer forged .223 barrel; off hand at 100 meters it will break clay birds set on the backstop all day long if you do your part & feed it decent .223. There is even a sniper version w/a scope & bipod that could be a contender in open if it were available in the US (though its a bit heavy). I understand Valmet AKs are also exceptionally well made. Don't count out the South African R5 copy of the Galil. All of these are viable, if a little on the heavy side. Its just that you can't generally buy these guns here since import has been banned since 1989 or so. Old used ones might be out there for a steep price. Even the repeal of the AWB will not allow direct import of Galil/R5/Valmet to resume.

[Correia]

www.robarm.com

The Vepr is actually based on the RPK. It is a lot stiffer and has a heavier barrel. I can do sub 2 inch 5 shot groups at 100 piece of cake, and I lack the patience to be a good benched shooter. I've done 5 inch groups at 200. I'm sure a better rifleman would be able to do better than that. My next Vepr will be .223 and I know a few people with those and they are all uniformly very accurate.

I can operate the safety with my trigger finger with out shifting my grip. I've gotten my mag changes to where they are pretty darn fast, (as long as I still have one in the chamber, lack of bolt hold open slows you down). My next one will have a reddot or an EoTech. I just have not decided on which one I'm going to go with yet.

[PacMan]

I guess if one doesn't want to shoot an AR in matches, then go ahead and spend money on getting an AK-platform rifle to shoot well. For shorter ranges where 100 yards is the long rifle stage, the standard cheapo AK w/ iron sight would do fine. I just can't see putting $ to improve it, kinda like trying to improve the acceleration of a YUGO with K&N filter and platinum spark plugs . Don't get me wrong, I like AKs, but IMO, you would get little or nothing in return for your money spent on accuracy improvements.

[Carlos]

"kinda like trying to improve the acceleration of a YUGO with K&N filter and platinum spark plugs"

Ouch! Does not SOUND like you like AKs!! Its all good; at least the 40 round magazines are 100% reliable (as are the 75 round and 100 round magazines; speed-mag change? What's that??!).

Really, if the AWB expires as it should, a modified Israel Military Industries Galil or Vector R-5 might just prove to be a very potent 3gun limited or open weapon.

Until then, AKs were not the winning guns at the nationals. Sad but true. Regards, C.

AKA "I'm STILL he-man Douglas Johnson!!"

[PacMan]

"kinda like trying to improve the acceleration of a YUGO with K&N filter and platinum spark plugs"

Ouch! Does not SOUND like you like AKs!! Its all good; at least the 40 round magazines are 100% reliable (as are the 75 round and 100 round magazines; speed-mag change? What's that??!).

Really, if the AWB expires as it should, a modified Israel Military Industries Galil or Vector R-5 might just prove to be a very potent 3gun limited or open weapon.

Until then, AKs were not the winning guns at the nationals. Sad but true. Regards, C.

AKA "I'm STILL he-man Douglas Johnson!!"

On the contrary, I do like AKs, specially in full-auto , and I fully agree with you in the reliability department, the AKs mag design is as good as it can be. I don't remember ever had any feeding problem, even with the 40 rounder. I've used my AK in short range 3 gun matches and did just fine, but since I don't have the ability to put optic on my AK, I would still prefer the AR platform. For $600, same ball park as the Vepr, one can build up a good shooting AR that would outrun the AK when it comes to distance targets.

[Carlos]

Agreed, and in getting back to Correia's orignal question about taking an AK beyond the club level, I also agree it is far easier/ more effective to spend $600 for a good running limited AR upper & a good trigger that can take you to the top at the nationals if you have the skill. The AK's just do not have what it takes at the big matches.

I'll still shoot my AK locally. If I make it to the nationals one year it will be with the AR-15. As for my Yugo, well that blew up years ago; air filter wasn't such a good idea I guese. D.

[Tokarev]

I recently picked up another VEPR and am going to send this one off to Krebs before he discontinues the KTR-03V conversion.

These critters shoot surprisingly well. With cheap nasty Wolf ammo both guns will toss three rounds into a 2" group if I do my part. Yeah, they are a little on the heavy side but that helps soak up recoil.

Now I need a couple 75 round drums!

[sra]

Finnish reservist/3gun match.

http://users.evtek.fi/~k0301493/stuff/reky...ti3_d-light.avi

http://users.evtek.fi/~k0301493/stuff/reky...ti4_d-light.avi

http://users.evtek.fi/~k0301493/stuff/reky...rasti2_mave.avi

[Sako92S]

Those videos are from our latest Winter CUP III match which was held in 03.12.05

[pdg45acp]

I'm going to "Try" an AK instead of my Bushmaster at our next 3 gun.

Mag change will be slower, but it wil be fun..

[Carlos]

BTW, it looks like (from the last FrontSight) that the AK shotgun is a huge technological advantage in open. A couple of "no name" or unknown Russians used very lightly modified Saiga 12C shotguns, plain old Kobra sights & stock magazines (gun & mag no longer available here in USA) to beat the entire Open field in Bali - save Mike Voigt.

[Jayson@IGF]

I've been building AKs for quite awhile. They make up about 50% of my work load with Hks making up the other half.

I dont think a 7.62 AK could be very competitive especially at range. They have quite a bit more recoil usually than an AR and most available ammo is not accurate, then on top of that the gas system puts a lot of flex on the barrel which hurts accuracy as well. Then you are up against it with magazine changes and no bolt hold open either.

However the 5.45 Bulgarian or Russian AK-74 can come close to holding its own against an AR. The accuracy is there and the recoil is dimished compared to the 7.62 AK.

Also I think the AK has a better trigger group, fairly easy to get a nice two stage 3lb pull. Usually they are more reliable than an AR. But they still dont have the quick mag change capability of the AR and the bolt carrier and bolt are heavier which makes the rifle rock up and down quite a bit more than an AR.

I've got or at least owned nearly every AK variant there is and I still shoot an AR at 3 gun in rifle.

However I have a SAIGA 12 I am planning on using in open class as soon as I get enough magazines. I am also going to make some extended base pads for the magazines so I can get 11 rounds in them. I think the AK based SAIGA 12 is going to be real hard to beat in open class.

[Correia]

I started this thread like a year ago and just realized that it was still on the page.

You are right about the Saiga 12. It is awesome. I've been using a Saiga 12 in local 3gun for the last year, and it is a blast. On the higher count stages I can really move up in the scores. (I need it too, because I'm still a pretty lousy pistol competitor) I wrote an article in SWAT magazine a few months back about the Saiga 12. I've become a big fan.

I also agree with you on the .223 and 5.45 AKs. I'm getting a .223 Vepr from the group buy that is going on at www.fbmginc.com right now. (Dirt cheap too)

I talked about trying a .223 Vepr and setting it up specifically for 3gun last year, but finances just didn't allow it at the time. But for under $500, I can justify screwing around with one now as the base for a comp project. I'm going to stick a JP comp on it, just to be really really different.

[Correia]

Here are the results from our 3gun style rifle only match that I shot in last Saturday. I took 2nd overall and 1st with irons. I used my 7.62x39 Vepr.

http://www.udpl.net/results/2005/Rifle-Car...Time5-28-05.pdf

There were a few CQB style hoser stages, some 100 yard position stages, and then a 200 yard stage. Seven overall, I'm guessing about 150 round count.

This is just a local match, but the shooters at UDPL are pretty good, and put on an excellent and challenging match.

Yep, positively getting a .223 one out of the group buy now.

[smokshwn]

Larry,

Congrats on shooting well Saturday but don't forget that there wasn't a single mag change in the whole match. That seems to be where a ton of time can be lost with the AK type rifles. Also remember there was only 24 total hits needed beyond 25 yds which significantly narrows the margin you get with an optic over irons.

Take care, Craig

[Correia]

Craig, you still kicked the crap out of me. Nice margin there.

I can't help it though, I'm on a mission now. I'm going to build a race AK. I've got an EOtech on the way.

Sometimes it is just fun to be different.