H&K P7 USPSA production legal?

[kdj]

I was poking around on the USPSA web site and happened to be looking at the production gun list:

H&K USP, USP Compact, USP Custom Sport, VP70Z, P9S (only with 100mm barrel), P8, P2000 , P7

The P7 is in red which I take to mean USPSA only.

Does that mean that my P7M8 would be legal for production? That would make it entertaining enough to try it again ... 'cause it didn't work too well in L10

Any one know the definitive truth?

Kevin

[diehli]

If it's on the list, it's USPSA Production Legal.

[Deuce]

I had sought out the link to add to my website. In the process, I have it, on authority, that anything in red is, indeed, USPSA-only. In case that wasn't abundantly clear yet.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

As the guy who heads the IPSC Production Division Committee and maintains the Approved Gun List for IPSC, I can confirm that entries in red on the USPSA list are indeed only approved for use at matchecs held in the 50 US States. If you attend a match outside the US (including Canada, Guam and Puerto Rico), the subject guns do not qualify.

As far as the mechanics are concerned, the "master list" is stored on the IPSC server and USPSA Webmaster Rob Boudrie links to the database, however he can add other guns approved by the USPSA BOD. This way, guns approved by IPSC automatically appear on the USPSA list, but not vice versa, and this obviously saves a lot of double entry.

For those of you wanting to link a list to your own website, the respective URLs are:

IPSC: http://www.ipsc.org/proddiv.php

USPSA: http://www.uspsa.org/production_list.php

[kdj]

So that means I can shoot Production with my P7M8 ... Cool ... if I ever get tired of Open, I have a new challenge - and after 1 match, I'll still buy a Glock 'cause I'm a pure gamer at heart

Thanks,

Kevin

[BSeevers]

In the early 90's there was a Master who was winning with a P7M13? The high cap version. I forget his name but he was from East coast. Serious fast good shooter. Pretty sure this was before the "GM" label was created

That was also Limited not Production.

[Vince Pinto]

kdj,

I shot some of my early IPSC matches with a P7M8. It was a great, reliable gun, but I had a helluva time finding mag pouches at that time. Of course with only 8 round mags, I needed a whole bunch of them.

I finally bought enough from Price-Western in the UK, and I had a ball with my P7M8, right up to the time I discovered Glocks, then I went to the Dark Side of The Force

[Bucky]

That explains why there were once legal, and now they are not.

[Vince Pinto]

Curses. Foiled again.

My secret plot to exclude everything except Glocks from IPSC Production Division has been uncovered.

I guess I better withdraw my "any colour gun, as long as it's black" rule amendment

[rboudrie]

he can add other guns approved by the USPSA BOD.

Everything Vince says is true, except that John Amidon adds guns to the list directly

[rboudrie]

I had sought out the link to add to my website.  In the process, I have it, on authority, that anything in red is, indeed, USPSA-only.  In case that wasn't abundantly clear yet.

Not abundantly clear? I thought directly stating such at the top of the USPSA List was sufficient.

[Deuce]

Not abundantly clear? I thought directly stating such at the top of the USPSA List was sufficient.

The P7 is in red which I take to mean USPSA only.

In case ...

Just in case I wasn't making myself abundantly clear.

Also, you were the "authority" mentioned ... I just didn't want to give away the farm in case that was all on the QT ... thanks, BTW.

[Vince Pinto]

Everything Vince says is true, except that John Amidon adds guns to the list directly

I'm impressed, but I know that you must've given him a really simple GUI to use for the purpose. Well done, Herr Web Meister.

You're helping to drag my old mate John into the 21st Century, so ignore his screams. He finally gave with AOL recently and if he gets a GSM cellular telephone, I'll definitely nominate him for the IPSC Apprentice Geek Of The Year Award

[Scooter]

The GM that shot a P7 back in the 80's was Bruce Gray. It was more of a P7M15 since it held 15 rounds and he shot 9mm Major.

I try using my P7M8, but found that it's really hard to shoot with 8 round mags. You're basically allowed one make up shot per stage or you'll be a static reload.

[kdj]

I shot a couple of matches with the P7M8 at the start of the year while searching for an Open gun. At that time, it didn't appear on the Production list (or at least not the one I looked at) so I was competing in L10 and made it to C class. An 8 round gun is even less competitive against widebody STIs and SVIs loaded with 10 rounds than it is against Glocks, so Production might be a step in the right direction

I wouldn't expect to be competative but it might have some entertainment value (for the observers).

I do have a nice collection of mag pouches for the P7 but I guess the in front of the belly 771 won't be allowed any more

To bring things back to my original quesition, is the P7 a recent addition to the list or did I just miss it earlier?

Thanks,

Kevin

[Vince Pinto]

To bring things back to my original quesition, is the P7 a recent addition to the list or did I just miss it earlier?

I think I can answer that question with some authority, because I'm directly responsible.

Both the H&K P7 series and the Springfield XD series were on the IPSC approved gun list for a short period of time when we didn't have a published IPSC definition of what exactly constituted "single action" (prohibited) and "double action" (permitted), but were were working on those definitions at the time on the Handgun Rules Committee.

When it became clear that the "final draft" definitions were taking shape (see Rule 8.1.2.N for the final wording), we immediately withdrew the subject guns from the list, pending a review. According to my records, the guns were added to the list on 11 June 2003 (XD) and 24 June 2003 (P7) but they were both removed on 14 July 2003. Our subsequent review proved we were correct in removing the subject guns.

I don't know why the USPSA re-listed the P7 (a rarity in IPSC competitions), but I understand they re-listed the XD Series because some competitors had purchased an XD Series pistol based on it's short tenure on the IPSC approved gun list, and the USPSA didn't want people to suffer financially, a concept I support, especially given that (unlike Europe and most other places) the Springfield brand has a significantly larger following in the USA.

I hope this answers your question but, if you want more background see this thread and this thread.

[shred]

I vaguely remember one of the USPSA honchos saying that the XD (and probably P7) are on the PD list on a (paraphrased) 'we can't think of a good, simple criteria to include them and keep 1911's out, but as they're roughly competitively equivalent to the guns that are already in PD, we want to put them in there too" basis.

I'm OK with that.

I've also heard that the 'single-action' BATFE status of the XD was originally a clerical paperwork error which is now nearly impossible to correct.

[Deuce]

Alright ... I'm just a newbie (3yrs shootin' USPSA) ... but this whole thing really bugs me.

And it's not just the XD ... it's Glock too ... particularly those with the 3.5lbs connectors (and such ... JP).

It's my understanding that the Production division was formed to entice (sp?) those many thousands of gun-owners who own little more than a Ruger, Beretta, S&W, or Sig (I'd doubt that HK's approach those numbers) 9mm traditional DA pistols.

Presuming, of course, that an SA (1911) pistol has a significant competitive advantage due to the trigger (weight, reset, stroke). If anyone makes "M" with any of those DA pistols, more power to 'em.

I don't see how Production is all that inviting to first-time shooters when those others shooting Production are trying to talk them into buying a Glock or XD and getting all the "extras".

Does it really matter whether DA causes two actions or not? What if three actions are performed ... is that a Triple-action?

It seems to me, at least from the start, it was about the trigger ... isn't that why the 1911's are, supposedly, at a competitive advantage?

If the rule were that a Production gun had to have a 5lbs or 7lbs or more initial trigger-pull, then maybe all this could've been avoided. As it is, I see people shooting Glocks and XD's between Production and Ltd-10 with impunity. Why? Well, with a 3.5lbs or less trigger, they're very competitive against the 1911's in Ltd-10 ... presuming most Ltd guns are slicked up Paras, SV's, or STI's ... otherwise, I'd expect them to fare very well there too.

Glocks are very popular ... and rightly so. And, of course, just about everyone else has tried to market "their Glock" (S&W Sigma , SA XD, HK 2000, I'm sure there's others ... I've just never even bothered to look into 'em). The XD competes very well 'cause it handles like a Glock ... is pretty well as safe as a Glock ... but, the trigger affords just a bit more "slickening". If the XD takes too big a bite outta the market, I wouldn't be surprised to see Glock produce a SA pistol. What then? Surely you can't allow an XD SA pistol but not a Glock SA pistol.

Anyhow, FWIW, I sure would rather see another division created where the Glocks, XD's, and whatever can compete on "equal" footing ... away from the traditional DA's.

I realize there's pretty much no chance of that happening. But, based on what I've read here about why the XD is USPSA-legal, it sure does seem reasonable to me. And, in the meantime, it seems a shame that the Production division is, somewhat, undermined just because the XD was, once, on some list.

[Vince Pinto]

If the rule were that a Production gun had to have a 5lbs or 7lbs or more initial trigger-pull, then maybe all this could've been avoided.

IPSC Production Divison rules require a minimum trigger pull of 5lbs - the USPSA version of PD does not.

[shred]

IPSC Production Divison rules require a minimum trigger pull of 5lbs - the USPSA version of PD does not.

Yeah, and the further you are from home, the further down the trigger they test it

Ok, not quite that bad, but I have seen what appears to be a tad of favoritism at the trigger-pull station. Be sure you have some cushion.

[Vince Pinto]

Ok, not quite that bad, but I have seen what appears to be a tad of favoritism at the trigger-pull station.

Can you be more specific? In any case, the essential elements of the trigger-pull test in Appendix F2 are:

2. The trigger weight or scale will be attached as closely as possible to the center of the trigger face;

3. The trigger of the handgun, with the muzzle pointed vertically skywards, must either:<snip>

-:and I don't see any ambiguity in these words.

[shred]

Well, where I saw it, the muzzle was held most parallel to the ground, mounted in a clamp and the pull-gauge was hand-held. This at a Level III match. I have no idea if it was conscious, but the local boys (who probably deserved it, btw) seemed to get their pull further up the trigger face than others.

Come to think of it, I don't know if anybody failed that test anyway.

[Vince Pinto]

Well, where I saw it, the muzzle was held most parallel to the ground, mounted in a clamp and the pull-gauge was hand-held.  This at a Level III match.

I'm disappointed to hear what happened. Clearly whoever was responsible failed to comply with the rules, so the trigger pull testing procedure used was therefore invalid and subject to protest.

[JMD]

"I'm disappointed to hear what happened. Clearly whoever was responsible failed to comply with the rules, so the trigger pull testing procedure used was therefore invalid and subject to protest. "

I will pass this along to the appropriate parties along with the correct rules. The individual who ran the chronograph and conducted the tests will be mortified that he was in error.

Joel