AlamoShooter Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 So I am new to longer distance shooting, And trying to work out what load combination the gun likes and how to hold for my best groups. constantly letting a shot drift out of the group over five shots . Its just very hard for me to pay attention that long. So my question is out of three sets of five shots groups at 500= yards on different days. Am I doing a reasonable job at keeping 7 out of 10 groups under 3/4 moa ? The funny thing is I have not matched the very first group at 510 yards that I shot with the gun new. I am feeling a bit inadequate I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Rod Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I'd say you are doing better than most and definitely better than me. Only the best shooters in my shooting circle can consistently hit those 1/2MOA groups 4 out of 5 times. After 2 years behind a bolt gun, I'm probably 1 MOA about a third of the time at 500+. The rest of the time I'm just glad to hear it ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsydlooknin75 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Why shoot for groups, as long as your bullet is going where you put it. Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 Why shoot for groups, as long as your bullet is going where you put it. Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk Well I am trying to find a load that is consistent and learn the gun and how to be consistent with the gun. learning the different gun and body positions I found a pattern to my shooting with 90% of my shooting , That pattern does not show up until after the third shot = it has me drifting the shots to the left. What I just determined is that I am getting a bit of a shadow on the left outer edge of the scope caused my me pushing / twisting my eye more on to the cheek. My cold bore shot is good , my rested shots are good, But if I stay in the scope for more than 60 seconds my eyes glaze and my hits suffer. I feel strongly that this will help my 3 gun work giving me information on why my "stressed shot" do not hold on target after I fatigue. Shooting the group and reading wind variations during the group tell me if I am reading the wind rite. so far the pattern is that I am over compensating for what I perceive as stronger wind gust. Besides I am old hard to learn new tricks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsydlooknin75 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Head over to snipershide and find the dot drill Target. I'll look for it tomorrow for ya if you can't find it. Shoot it at 100 yards and it will humble you. Build loads at 200 or 300. Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Rod Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Shoot it at 100 yards and it will humble you. Understatement. Every time I think I'm doing well it slaps me down especially the 1/2" dots. http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2626362 http://www.snipershide.com/2010/10/basic-lesson-23-snipers-hide-dot-drill/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCL Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) Shoot it at 100 yards and it will humble you. Understatement. Every time I think I'm doing well it slaps me down especially the 1/2" dots. http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2626362 http://www.snipershide.com/2010/10/basic-lesson-23-snipers-hide-dot-drill/ +1 I thought I was a fairly good shot till I started shoooting these! Shooting qroups is one thing, but hitting where you want is a whole different ballgame. ccL Edited January 19, 2012 by CCL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
427Cobra Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) Dots are a humbling experience. What rifle? What scope? How did you focus the scope to your eyes? What is the load, case, bullet, primer, powder? What is your SD\ES? Are you seating bullets by Ojive length or COAL? How many firings on the brass? What is your brass prep? Edited January 20, 2012 by 427Cobra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 Dots are a humbling experience. What rifle? = Rem 700 260 short throte Bartlin Medium Palma barrel 22" all the works a bench rest gun smith would do What scope? Vortex Dua 5-20 razor EBR2B MRAD Vortex medium rings = but they may be too low How did you focus the to your eyes? against a plain back ground , but I keep fiddeling with it like a fool What is the load, case, bullet, primer, powder? One of the loads that has come to the top is 140 A-Max 43.8 Ramshot Hunter Lapua case Fed 210M primer looks like it likes 0.002 to 003 neck under neck size What is your SD\ES? 30 Are you seating bullets by Ojive length or COAL? at the Ojive with a modified hornady comparator How many firings on the brass? 1 & 2 & New brass What is your brass prep? trim to 2.025" in & out chamf + Flash hole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
427Cobra Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Take your scope outside, point it at the sky, max power, parallax at infinity, adjust the ocular so the reticle is crisp n clear, now this is very important, look at anything else but thru the scope, you don't want your eyes adjusting to looking thru the glass, you want the scope adjusted to your eyes, after a minute look thru the scope again at the sky, adjust the ocular if needed, keep repeating until the scope is as perfect as it can be for your eyes. Try some H4350 with CCi primers, I bet your ES/SD shrinks, right now I have a SD of 4 and a ES of 6 with my 260, golf balls at 500 hate my guts, 140 amax in my rifle jump .015, the run out of my fired brass is less than .001, and my loaded rounds have no more than .0015 run out, start dry firing a lot, pay attention to your cheek weld, and when the weapon goes click the reticle should not move at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Groups are about precision. Shooting dots is about accuracy. Not the same thing. It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
427Cobra Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 1 target 1 bullet 1 hit at any distance, that is percision, thats why snipers are called percision marksmen, shooting groups is an exercise in accuracy, a person/weapon/ammo that cleans dots is also a person/weapon/ammo that can shoot small groups, as much as they are different they are exactly the same. Dots teach us how to be percise over and over again, Groups teach us how to develop an accurate load, shoot accurately, and how accurate our weapon is, shooting groups comes first, then dots. Alamo Shooter has a good scope, I read in to what he wrote and think his scope is not adjusted to his eyes, our eyes shouldn't strain from looking thru our glass, I shoot with both eyes open and look thru my scopes sometimes for a hour at a time, my eyes don't feel strained, also AS do you have a level on your scope, if so do you ensure every shot is taken with the bubble in the same spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 1 target 1 bullet 1 hit at any distance, that is percision, thats why snipers are called percision marksmen, shooting groups is an exercise in accuracy, a person/weapon/ammo that cleans dots is also a person/weapon/ammo that can shoot small groups, as much as they are different they are exactly the same. Dots teach us how to be percise over and over again, Groups teach us how to develop an accurate load, shoot accurately, and how accurate our weapon is, shooting groups comes first, then dots. Sorry, but you've got your terms backwards. Precision vs Accuracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
427Cobra Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Shooting groups is accuracy "In the fields of science, engineering, industry and statistics, the accuracy[1] of a measurement system is the degree of closeness of measurements of a quantity to that quantity's actual (true) value" notice it says degree of closeness Precision LR shooting " The precision[1] of a measurement system, also called reproducibility or repeatability, is the degree to which repeated measurements under unchanged" That right there is DOPE, which means Data On Previous Engagement, the last time I shot a target at that distance with the same DA my bullet stuck here, so it must go the same place this time, ie repeatability, this is why people use data books, it records there DOPE so in the future they can repeat the shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benchrest_shooting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
427Cobra Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Old men shoot BR, I don't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Alamo , You're messing up in your head. Don't listen to the voices....just shoot each shot EXACTLY the same way. Get up from the rifle and reacquire your NPOA EACH time. And get this into your head: You don't shoot 5 shots.....you shoot ONE shot FIVE times. That should solve your problem. JK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landshark45 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Alamo , You're messing up in your head. Don't listen to the voices....just shoot each shot EXACTLY the same way. Get up from the rifle and reacquire your NPOA EACH time. And get this into your head: You don't shoot 5 shots.....you shoot ONE shot FIVE times. That should solve your problem. JK Best advice so far. Just keep it simple and built on your success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbutrator Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) One shot five times exactly the same way...easy right! ...Not. 308...168 match king?...lapped barrel..most marine shooters can shoot smiley faces all day at 300 yards. My best shot at 500 yards are with my 300 win mag bolt. let it roll back like a rail car on tracks straight back and hold my trigger a second after pull. I use a G David Tubb forehand grip with a strap. And try to do his sighting techniques. If you get sub MOA at 500 you are way ahead of the game...IMO Edited January 21, 2012 by Arbutrator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 If I had a dime for each time someone made the observation that I was "messed up in the head" I would have a bunch of dimes. Thanks for the help , most of it I understand. The new trigger helped a lot, managed to grab some time at 300 yards with a bi-pod The help and the trigger has my 4th and 5th shot staying in the group, and that feels very satisfying already. I did find that Ramshot Hunter likes more neck tension than the H 4350 = thats interesting. shooting off a bi-pod instead of a front rest is ..diffrent. we have to build up a table shoot prone over the rise in ground from our 300 -500 area = shooting from the back of a pick up can be ...inconsistent Calling shots off and having them land 1" out of the group at 300 yards makes me feel I am on the rite path. The next thing is to get a higher scope mount to let my face pressure lessen = now I have the same face pressure as my AR Ok somethig I don't know Cobra talked about DOPE = I understand that but he allso used "DA" what does DA stand for ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mda Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I found a pattern to my shooting with 90% of my shooting , That pattern does not show up until after the third shot = it has me drifting the shots to the left. What I just determined is that I am getting a bit of a shadow on the left outer edge of the scope caused my me pushing / twisting my eye more on to the cheek. I feel strongly that this will help my 3 gun work giving me information on why my "stressed shot" do not hold on target after I fatigue. Sounds like you have found the problem. You are holding to long and getting eye fatigue, as well as, how important to have the same pressure, cheek, hand ect on the rifle for each shot in each position. The rest is just mental, You are stating you always have a problem with the 3rd and 4th shoots so you are fulfilling that thought process. MDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Well I am trying to find a load that is consistent and learn the gun and how to be consistent with the gun. learning the different gun and body positions I found a pattern to my shooting with 90% of my shooting , That pattern does not show up until after the third shot = it has me drifting the shots to the left. What I just determined is that I am getting a bit of a shadow on the left outer edge of the scope caused my me pushing / twisting my eye more on to the cheek. My cold bore shot is good , my rested shots are good, But if I stay in the scope for more than 60 seconds my eyes glaze and my hits suffer. I feel strongly that this will help my 3 gun work giving me information on why my "stressed shot" do not hold on target after I fatigue. Shooting the group and reading wind variations during the group tell me if I am reading the wind rite. so far the pattern is that I am over compensating for what I perceive as stronger wind gust. Besides I am old hard to learn new tricks On issue #1 Pay special attention to reaquiring/maintaining your NPOA after each shot. It sounds as if each shot is changing your body position forcing you to muscle the gun and resulting in subsequent shots being off. On issue #2 Breathe and blink. Even if you compromise your breathing for 30 seconds you can see measurable degeneration in the performance of your retinas. Breathing will keep the retina oxygenated and blinking will help with muscular fatigue of the focal muscles of the eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Alamo, Do yourself a favor and don't shoot off a bipod or front rest. Shoot off a bag placed under the fore stock of the rifle. It will result in much less "jump" than shooting off a bipod produces. The barrel of any rifle flexes or whips when a round passes down it...the pressure wave actually deforms the barrel and produces the "jump" that we see when shooting off a bipod especially on a hard surface like concrete. Bag shooters have less of a problem with NPOA because the rifle is pretty much in the same position as it was prior to firing the round....with a bipod you'll have to reposition a lot or you wind up muscling the rifle which produces accuracy problems. One symptom is horizontal drift of the rounds "walking" across the target. Theres some real good bags out there and some really super stable ones....one such company is Doggonegood bags...unsure as to their web address but I purchased one many years ago when I was still working as an LE sniper and it served me very well. You can even make your own using the beads they use in craft stores to fill stuffed animals (Beanie Babies) and some canvas from a fabric shop. Cut the canvas to the bag shape and size you want and then you can use shoe-goo glue to seal it on 3 sides. Let it cure and then fill it with the beads to whatever firmness you want in the bag and seal the last side with shoe-goo. You can paint it to camp it and although the canvas will get wet the plastic beads won't absorb any water so it won't get soaking wet and heavier than when its dry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkboy Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I am fairly new to shooting long range as well AlamoShooter and past 50. I was having the same problem also. I started closing my eyes while running the bolt and that helped with the eye fatigue. The other thing I had a issue with was a sore neck after a long bout of prone shooting. I started doing neck exercises to strengthen my neck and get it used to the "looking straight up" position. I can't prove it but I think it helped the blood flow through my carotid arteries as well. The scope doesn't turn darker later in the string anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 Good stuff thanks guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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