GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) A lot has been said about the implementation of the 3lb trigger pull in Production, while very little has been said about the banning of magnetic mag holders in Production. That decision (to ban the magnets, at least in Production) will get me moving to get much more involved in USPSA rules...As I think it is a BS rule (IMO). If a magnet is "race gear" then technically all the mag pouches we use are "race gear", along with the belts, and the holsters...Where would it stop? USPSA telling us what kind of shoes we can wear in Production cause some are used by track stars to run faster? I can see dropping them from SS, as it was essentially started as a "purest" division, but even then, I don't agree with it. Where will it make the game (and it is a game) any better to drop the magnets from Production? It has been bantered around that is is a CCW division, but it is not. But, with the magnet ban, and trigger pull limit, that is what they are trying to turn it into... To what purpose does this serve? What problem does it solve? The only time that a magnetic mag holder is generally used is on an unloaded table start. Production shooters have already been hampered with enough rules about placement and type of gear that we can use, now they are adding yet another ridiculous rule for for us to follow, which solves and addresses no issue. Think about it like this: The only time a magnetic mag holder will come into play is AFTER the start signal of a COF, 99% of shooters will never use one as a main mag holder for a match, and most will simply put them on their belt after they see the lay out of the match, and if they are needed. If that magnetic mag holder is behind the hip (as per the rule), what does it matter how it is constructed and what it is constructed of? USPSA stands for United States PRACTICAL Shooting Association. A magnetic mag holder is by all accounts practical. Edited January 13, 2012 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I agree completely! The proposed restriction makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS101 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Not fond of them... I actually would like to see them relegated to open. If it is a "guns and ammo on the table start", take the 2 seconds to place the mags in the pouches, or man up and go for broke strong hand.... People who design stages put things in to make us do / try different things, while still retain the freestyle nature of our sport. These style pouches really don't add to our sport... *in my humble opinion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdphotoguy Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) How many folks actually use a magnet in Production? Of all the folks I've seen in Production, I can only count one that used a magnet and for that matter he was the only person in any division I've ever seen with a magnet. Now there might be a ton of folks using them in other parts of the country, but I have a feeling it's a small number given their limited benefit. I don't see the magnet rule as a big deal, doesn't require a shooter to have his/her gun reworked or force them to buy new gear, it just says you can't use a product most are not using anyway. Edited January 13, 2012 by jdphotoguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 The way I see it, USPSA is supposed to be "Freestyle", solve the problem the best way you can. Since the magnet would only be used AFTER the start signal, that is part of the problem solving for that stage. Not being able to use whatever means necesaary or available to solve the problem is not "Freestyle", it is forcing a singular way to solve the problem, instead of allowing innovation to allow another solution. All banning magnetic mag holders will do is slow down a match, and if they are allowed in other divisions, pretty much set in stone that a production shooter, no matter how fast, will never win that stage, when competing against limited and open shooters, of the same class.... If magnetic mag holders are "race gear", then so are CR Speed pouches, DAA pouches, and most other pouches out there that do not snap closed. Same could be said of holsters....Is a Blade Tech DOH not race gear? It was designed specifically for USPSA to be a fast draw holster. There is no restraining pin, strap, or any other retention device in one....And, does anyone know anyone using them for "Every day use"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErichF Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Magnetic mag holders are unfair to Glock boyz...which is probably who came up with the proposal... If I wanna tie it around me neck, who cares? I shot a stage last weekend where I sure could have used one or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Production took a steep ride down the "slippery slope" ever since it's implementation. The original intent of this Division is to have a leveled playing field where competitors would be judged purely based on shooting skills as opposed to becoming another the "gear race" division. Sadly, the envelope began to be pushed from day one and Production today is nothing more that Minor version of Limited 10. I for one would have loved to see the implementation of the 3 lb minimum trigger weight and by the same token I applaud the vote banning magnetic magazine holders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Magnetic mag holders are unfair to Glock boyz...which is probably who came up with the proposal... Glock magazines are metal-lined and will stick to a magnetic mag holder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Magnetic mag holders are unfair to Glock boyz...which is probably who came up with the proposal... Glock magazines are metal-lined and will stick to a magnetic mag holder. Indeed they will! I have stuck them to my magnet and they are on there pretty tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandrum Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I say no...I don't want to have to buy more gear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Production took a steep ride down the "slippery slope" ever since it's implementation. The original intent of this Division is to have a leveled playing field where competitors would be judged purely based on shooting skills as opposed to becoming another the "gear race" division. Sadly, the envelope began to be pushed from day one and Production today is nothing more that Minor version of Limited 10. I for one would have loved to see the implementation of the 3 lb minimum trigger weight and by the same token I applaud the vote banning magnetic magazine holders. If the original intent of Production was "to have a leveled playing field where competitors would be judged purely based on shooting skills" , then where does a magnetic mag holder help some get more "A" zone hits? Doesn't make sense....The intent was on the shooting, hence the minor scoring, forcing more accurate shots, slowing the shooter, making them take better aim....a magnetic mag pouch does not make you shoot any better, it has no bearing on your hits at the end of the day, but it does have bearing on your speed and hit factor....Having a magnetic mag holder is not going to change the points from a "D" zone hit to an "A" zone hit, it's still up to the shooter to make that happen, the mag holder has squat to do with it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 ... then where does a magnetic mag holder help some get more "A" zone hits? Allowing magnetic magazine holders was only another slip that farther moved the Division away from its original intent. For example, allowing a DOH's, permitting stippling and turning a blind eye on $300 trigger jobs on Production guns were all IMO mistakes. None of these will help you shoot more "A's" but, for the most part, if you choose to not make these improvements, odds are that you will not be placing as high on the finishing results as other shooters who have spent the money. Granted that there are a few amazing athletes (namely Bob V. and Dave S.; amongst others) that could beat us all even if they were shooting water guns but, for the rest of us (the mere humans), Production has become the Minor version of L-10 where we try to "buy" our spot on the results. I don't meant to say that if a new shooter were to purchase a $3,000 Production gun like a pimped-up Sphinx they will immediately make GM and go on to win Nationals. What I am saying is that, if you want to do well against other competitors, you better be ready to spend some dough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 ... then where does a magnetic mag holder help some get more "A" zone hits? Allowing magnetic magazine holders was only another slip that farther moved the Division away from its original intent. For example, allowing a DOH's, permitting stippling and turning a blind eye on $300 trigger jobs on Production guns were all IMO mistakes. None of these will help you shoot more "A's" but, for the most part, if you choose to not make these improvements, odds are that you will not be placing as high on the finishing results as other shooters who have spent the money. Granted that there are a few amazing athletes (namely Bob V. and Dave S.; amongst others) that could beat us all even if they were shooting water guns but, for the rest of us (the mere humans), Production has become the Minor version of L-10 where we try to "buy" our spot on the results. I don't meant to say that if a new shooter were to purchase a $3,000 Production gun like a pimped-up Sphinx they will immediately make GM and go on to win Nationals. What I am saying is that, if you want to do well against other competitors, you better be ready to spend some dough. Ok, so you are saying you now need a $3,000 gun to compete.....What's a $20 magnet to that? That Sphinx is legal...Why not a $20 magnet? The Sphinx may help you shoot better, the magnet will not....It's all about the shooting right? You are advocating making the now legal changes to your production gun to stay competitive, I quote.... "None of these will help you shoot more "A's" but, for the most part, if you choose to not make these improvements, odds are that you will not be placing as high on the finishing results as other shooters who have spent the money". How, if none of these will make you shoot any better, will you be placing higher in the finishing results? That's an oxy-moron... Like it or not, the mods we have all done to our guns are legal (until 2013, anyway, pending), and we have done these to be more competitive. And, it doesn't matter what kind of gun you own, whether it's a $200 Sigma, or a $3,000 Sphinx, if you don't have what it takes between the ears, the will to practice, and the desire to compete and win, you are carrying a boat anchor on your side.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 I say no...I don't want to have to buy more gear! That's the thing...You don't have to buy more gear....But it is an option if you choose to do so (and a very cheap one, compared to all the other gear we buy!).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Ok, so you are saying you now need a $3,000 gun to compete..... Wow!! Talk about twisting my words... How, if none of these will make you shoot any better, will you be placing higher in the finishing results? Because shooting more "A's" by itself won't help you win any matches if you can't do so quickly. ...and we have done these to be more competitive. And therein lies the crux! I reaffirm what I already said, if you want to be competitive, you have to spend the dough which is not the original intent of Production but it is what it has become. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 That's the thing...You don't have to buy more gear....But it is an option if you choose to do so (and a very cheap one, compared to all the other gear we buy!).... ... and if you don't have one you are giving up valuable second on that stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Ok, so you are saying you now need a $3,000 gun to compete..... Wow!! Talk about twisting my words... How, if none of these will make you shoot any better, will you be placing higher in the finishing results? Because shooting more "A's" by itself won't help you win any matches if you can't do so quickly. ...and we have done these to be more competitive. And therein lies the crux! I reaffirm what I already said, if you want to be competitive, you have to spend the dough which is not the original intent of Production but it is what it has become. Shooting all "D's" or having misses fast really won't make you finish higher....But again, a magnetic mag holder has nothing to do with shooting A's or D's...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) That's the thing...You don't have to buy more gear....But it is an option if you choose to do so (and a very cheap one, compared to all the other gear we buy!).... ... and if you don't have one you are giving up valuable second on that stage. How much are you giving up if you don't have super traction shoes? Next rule, they are gonna tell us that we can't wear sneakers, and all have to wear hard soled dress shoes? Gonna have to wear a 3 piece suit? What about all the shooters that come out there in their 511 pants, shooting shirts, and cleats? You gonna ban all of that gear as well because a newby doesn't have it? Hell, the shoes will cost 10 times what one magnet will....Gonna ban mag loaders as well? They keep your thumbs from getting wore out loading mags, but you aren't gonna carry one on the street, and chances are, a newb won't have one of those as well.... Edited January 13, 2012 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Texas Granny Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Let's take this a little further. Since some have mentioned Conceal Carry was some sort of guideline for Production then the holsters should be limited to only those that fit inside the pants line. Also an outer garment must be worn to conceal the weapon and mags. BTW someone is buying the magnetic pouches or there wouldn't be people manufacturing them or retailers caring them. Edited January 13, 2012 by West Texas Granny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 How much are you giving up if you don't have super traction shoes? Next rule, they are gonna tell us that we can't wear sneakers, and all have to wear hard soled dress shoes? Gonna have to wear a 3 piece suit? What about all the shooters that come out there in their 511 pants, shooting shirts, and cleats? You gonna ban all of that gear as well because a newby doesn't have it? Hell, the shoes will cost 10 times what one magnet will....Gonna ban mag loaders as well? They keep your thumbs from getting wore out loading mags, but you aren't gonna carry one on the street, and chances are, a newb won't have one of those as well.... I don't believe the Board of Directors is considering making these changes at the time so it's probably best if we don't get ahead of ourselves. All kidding aside, you are calling shoes and pants "equipment" and I must disagree with this premise. In my opinion, a specific brand of pants won't give you a competitive advantage. People choose to wear them for comfort (and because the look cool)! The shoes are an issue of safety while running at the range. Again, it doesn't really matter what type of shoes a competitor uses as long as they can help the shooter navigate the COF safely. Let's take this a little further. Since some have mentioned Conceal Carry was some sort of guideline for Production then the holsters should be limited to only those that fit inside the pants line. Also an outer garment must be worn to conceal the weapon and mags. It never was the intention of Production to replicate the IDPA restrictions. On the contrary, the idea was to complement the game and invite those who shoot IDPA to come shoot USPSA too. BTW someone is buying the magnetic pouches or there wouldn't be people manufacturing them or retailers caring them. The same way that there is a market for magazine wells and red-dot optics. If you are shooting Limited or Open, you will be best served by having a magnetic magazine holder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 I don't believe the Board of Directors is considering making these changes at the time so it's probably best if we don't get ahead of ourselves. But who's to say they won't? No one ever thought they'd be talking about (and implementing) a 3lb trigger pull rule either.... All kidding aside, you are calling shoes and pants "equipment" and I must disagree with this premise. In my opinion, a specific brand of pants won't give you a competitive advantage. People choose to wear them for comfort (and because the look cool)! The shoes are an issue of safety while running at the range. Again, it doesn't really matter what type of shoes a competitor uses as long as they can help the shooter navigate the COF safely. Safety my butt. I've seen people shoot matches in anything from flip flops to almost baseball cleats. Baseball cleats to make it safe? Come on....I'll give to you, the pants are a stretch...But if the shoes were only for safety, shouldn't we be wearing steel toed shoes in case a popper falls on our toes? And, do a search on here, there are more than a few threads about shoes for shooting, and which ones are best....And none of the questions asked in those threads is about "Will it allow me to move around the stage safely?", It's all, "Can I shave some time off my stage by wearing such and such shoes?" It never was the intention of Production to replicate the IDPA restrictions. On the contrary, the idea was to complement the game and invite those who shoot IDPA to come shoot USPSA too. I agree with this, but now they are trying to replicate IDPA, IMO. The same way that there is a market for magazine wells and red-dot optics. If you are shooting Limited or Open or Production, you will be best served by having a magnetic magazine holder. I fixed your last paragraph for you..... One thing Cy, What does USPSA stand for? United States PRACTICAL Shooting Association.....How is a magnet not practical, in any division? I went to my local gun range last night, and they were selling a magnet FOR YOUR GUN!. It mounts on a wall beside your bed and the stick the slide or barrel onto the magnet for easy access.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 How is a magnet not practical, in any division? The same can be said of a magazine well or red-dot optics. Heck yeah they are practical but still not allowed on every division. If this were the case we'd still have only two division to compete in: Limited & Open (ahhh, those were the good ol' days). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) How is a magnet not practical, in any division? The same can be said of a magazine well or red-dot optics. Heck yeah they are practical but still not allowed on every division. If this were the case we'd still have only two division to compete in: Limited & Open (ahhh, those were the good ol' days). And, I might point out, neither of those were ever legal in Production, so that's a non issue....Magnets were and still are, until 1/1/13.... Edit to add: Ban magnets, and we'll find another way....Like this glued onto your belt and onto the basepad of the magazine.... http://www.itapestore.com/3mduallock-sj35511x1yard.aspx Edited January 13, 2012 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 And, I might point out, neither of those were ever legal in Production, so that's a non issue....Magnets were and still are, until 1/1/13.... No disagreement here! Yes, magnets are currently legal and, if you are not using one, odds are that you will eventually be beat on a stage by someone who is using them. If no changes are made to the current ruling, they will be banned in Production by this time next year. A ruling that I applaud... Whether they remain legal or not is still to be seen. One year is a long time and those who made the choice may still change their minds; I just hope they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Edit to add: Ban magnets, and we'll find another way....Like this glued onto your belt and onto the basepad of the magazine.... Yes, of course there will always be gamers who try to circumvent the spirit of the law. I have no problem with doing this. On the contrary, pushing the "legality limits" without cheating is one of the things that fascinate me about this sport but preventing this sort of competitive advantage is a simple matter of using the correct wording in the Rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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