bikerburgess Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 So for giggles the other day I picked up a Daewoo DP51 pistol. I try to shoot all my pistol in competition, and this pistol has a unique tri action trigger system that brought up a question. With this pistol you can put the hammer down like a normal DA (hold hammer pull trigger lower hammer) or you can just push the hammer forward, when you do this it resets the trigger and the hammer is resting on the frame like normal the difference is it leaves the main spring compressed. So to shoot from this position you pull the trigger resetting the hammer to the back position and process with a single action ish trigger pull. The question is hammer down main spring compressed a legal ready condition. Keep in mind that this is how the pistol was designed Im interested to hear the opinions on this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay870 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 If the hammer is fully forward/down you're good to go IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Burwell Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I actually have a DP51 also, never shot a match with it, but your question made me go look at the rules again. The rule says Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal. Since the DP51 has an external hammer it would have to be "fully" decocked not just have the hammer lowered. To the average RO lowering the hammer would look like the correct starting condition, but in reality the gun is still cocked and not correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Mike, Happy to see that you asked the question here. Shoot it from whatever condition you like... in OPEN! Best, ac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
de03x7 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Mike, Happy to see that you asked the question here. Shoot it from whatever condition you like... in OPEN! Best, ac Why would he have to shoot it in open? The production list has a Daewoo DH40 and a DP51 on it unless you know more about the gun than is in the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 (edited) Mike, Happy to see that you asked the question here. Shoot it from whatever condition you like... in OPEN! Best, ac Why would he have to shoot it in open? The production list has a Daewoo DH40 and a DP51 on it unless you know more about the gun than is in the OP. I think its in reference to this: 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. Appendix D4 - Special Conditions: — Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal. This is applying the same logic in the Single Stack Major/Minor thread where the shooter has 9 rounds after the start signal when they had declared major. The resulting conclusion was a bump to open for breaking division requirements. Personally, as an RO, I should not have started the shooter because they were not in the correct start position (eg not satisfying the ready condition in 8.1.2). And if I inadvertently had started them, I would require them to reshoot. For example, if on a multi-string stage, a CZ/Sig/Beretta/etc. shooter shoots the second or third string with the hammer cocked and locked, I'm not going to call the RM to bump the shooter to Open. Instead I'd stop the shooter as soon as I can, and order a reshoot. Yes, this maybe pushing 8.2.2 to an extreme. Holding this stance is going to suck though, if a shooter uses this to force a reshoot by "forgetting" to decock. Edited November 22, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
de03x7 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 bikerburgess- The question is hammer down main spring compressed a legal ready condition. Dan Burwell-Since the DP51 has an external hammer it would have to be "fully" decocked not just have the hammer lowered ac4wordplay- Shoot it from whatever condition you like... in OPEN Skydiver- I think its in reference to this: 6.2.5.1 Maybe I'm missing something but as I read it biker asks if the hammer down, spring compressed is legal. Dan tells him it needs to be fully decocked. Then ac says he can shoot it how he wants in open as if production is not an option. Don't take this as arguing, I'm just trying to figure it out for myself. I am going to take the RO class in the spring and if one of these guns shows up I want to know how to handle it. This is the first time I ever heard of a Daewoo so I went to the NROI page to see if it was on the production list. My first thought, when I saw Daewoo was, what makes him think he going to get a car in his holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Although my current position is that the gun should be fully decocked back to DA mode, I would be remiss to not point out this NROI ruling and strengthen Jay870's statement that "If the hammer is fully forward/down you're good.": Question: Does the CZ decocker or others similar, lower the hammer sufficiently to comply with Production division, and if not, how would they comply with the wording in 10.5.9 without being DQ'd? Answer: Manufacturers have installed decockers to take the hammer safely to a position that is deemed safe, therefore; the term fully decocked is the position that the hammer rest at once the decocker has been used. Altering a factory installed decocker to bring the hammer to rest at less than a half cocked position is not allowed. The key here seems to be "the term fully decocked is the position of the hammer at rest once the decocker has been used." Following this line of logic, the method for decocking is pushing the hammer forward till it rests against the frame. The only question is will the RM, arb committee, or DNROI accept that there is not a physical decocker lever/button installed on the gun, but rather the shooter manually lowering the hammer. This could be an interesting discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 I wouldn't confuse a competitor's thumb on the back of the hammer with a decocker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 The ruling on the cz decocker is what made me pose the question. I took it to imply that as designed by the manufacturer is good to go. The other argument is the hammer IS fully decocked it's just different than we are used to I will point out that I will probably run it from the regular decocked start condition as I am used to that on my tanfoglio production pistols. And this is not a pistol I would run at a major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 bikerburgess- The question is hammer down main spring compressed a legal ready condition. Dan Burwell-Since the DP51 has an external hammer it would have to be "fully" decocked not just have the hammer lowered ac4wordplay- Shoot it from whatever condition you like... in OPEN Skydiver- I think its in reference to this: 6.2.5.1 Maybe I'm missing something but as I read it biker asks if the hammer down, spring compressed is legal. Dan tells him it needs to be fully decocked. Then ac says he can shoot it how he wants in open as if production is not an option. Don't take this as arguing, I'm just trying to figure it out for myself. I am going to take the RO class in the spring and if one of these guns shows up I want to know how to handle it. This is the first time I ever heard of a Daewoo so I went to the NROI page to see if it was on the production list. My first thought, when I saw Daewoo was, what makes him think he going to get a car in his holster. de03x7, bikerburgess and I are friends (I'm not trying to malevolently bump him to Open) and had started this discussion at yesterday's match. We handled the firearm and I found it an interesting question, and although I know how I would handle it (as an official at a match), it's worthy of further exploration. Skydiver answered your question to me quite well. I don't believe that the ruling Skydiver linked to is relevant to the Daewoo in question. The question was about "the CZ decocker or others similar" ; the decocking mechanism (if you can call it that - I'm not convinced it's appropriate) on the Daewoo is not a CZ decocker, nor is it similar. Although the hammer is forward, is it truly decocked? (I don't know all the the mechanics, but it seems unlikely - the mainspring remains compressed, right?) IIRC, a few years back this same mechanism/modification was offered (possibly through Cylinder & Slide?) for the Browning Hi-Power (found it ), and possibly as a factory option on the HP, or maybe the BDA 9mm (which is on the Production list) - anybody remember?). Again, IIRC, in an issue of Front Sight from the last year or two, Amidon addressed a question about the use of such a Hi-Power in Production Division. Anybody remember, or able to find it? End result in that case: not Production compliant. Not particularly relevant, and the opinion isn't the same as a ruling, but I wonder if there were any details we might find useful for the Daewoo discussion. Best, ac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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