RO Stage Manipulations

[aztecdriver]

I split this off from another thread to explore further.

Nik Spoke:

As the RO, I get to approve the position the chair. Simply won't start you, if you do anything too crazy -- other than say reasonable motion to accommodate your particular body type/size.....

And yes, ideally this would be nailed down during design/construction. Chairs however, especially when in vicinity to tables, should not be nailed down, to be able to adjust to the various sizes of competitors.....

Doesn't mean you can rotate it.....

Herein lies something that drives me a little up the wall. I do not believe it's the RO's position to approve positions. If the start position adheres to the letter of the WSB - you don't have a choice, I'm in the start position. You can demand it be in the same general direction and notate that as part of the stage, but I don't like that.

What specific purpose does stopping someone from twisting a chair sideways are you trying to stop from occurring? As long as they don't step on the chair and try to start perched in a praying mantis position that would be unsafe - what is the point to forcing the chair to face any direction?

Not asking to fight with you - I really want to try and understand this, because 1.1.5 says freestyle, the start position is defined. My impression is if you don't want the chair moved according to how the shooter wants it - you best define it. This stuff where the RO stands there and says, no, we're not starting you like that - the chair must face downrange. At which point I look at the WSB and ask where it says that, I get told by the RO, "I said that" and I ask to be unloaded and call the RM over.

I've seen far too much of this stuff lately, and I want your opinion and discussion on it.

[XRe]

My impression is if you don't want the chair moved according to how the shooter wants it - you best define it.

Correct.

[LPatterson]

My impression is if you don't want the chair moved according to how the shooter wants it - you best define it.

Correct.

I agree WITHIN reason. Freestyle doesn't mean you can do it anyway you want to. I know of several case where the RO has read the WSB to a squad only to have a shooter try to proclaim that is not what is written. Most of the time when this occurs the RO will show a starting position. If the RO has been starting people in a certain manner and suddenly a shooter dsecides he wants to go freestyle, I personally would would ask him to unload and show clear so he could speak to the RM. I would then go back to running shooters. If the RM determined I was wrong then he can contact all the other shooters who started another way so they can reshoot or throw out the stage. Or replace me.

[lcs]

My impression is if you don't want the chair moved according to how the shooter wants it - you best define it.

Correct.

"Seated in chair, hands on knees," would allow you to move the chair facing any direction you want? Most stages I've seen have a picture of the chair and it's position.

[LPatterson]

My impression is if you don't want the chair moved according to how the shooter wants it - you best define it.

Correct.

"Seated in chair, hands on knees," would allow you to move the chair facing any direction you want? Most stages I've seen have a picture of the chair and it's position.

3.2.2 requires the RO to read the WSB verbatim to each squad, hard to read a picture. However this would not stop the RO from showing a position. It was done at the Nationals for clarity.

[Outsydlooknin75]

I think if a chair is involved its easiest to add in "back touching back of chair". That keeps people from standing on it or sitting side saddle, it kinda forces the shooter in the chair seated properly. To me adding that little bit is kinda like stipulating shoulders and hips square to wall. If you are going to stipulate a start position then say exactly how you want the shooter to start in the wsb, if of doesn't say you can do something I don't think it is up to the RO to say no you can't. As a shooter if you feel you should be allowed to do something and the RO says no you owe it to yourself to go up the chain of command.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

[remoandiris]

My impression is if you don't want the chair moved according to how the shooter wants it - you best define it.

Correct.

I agree WITHIN reason. Freestyle doesn't mean you can do it anyway you want to. I know of several case where the RO has read the WSB to a squad only to have a shooter try to proclaim that is not what is written. Most of the time when this occurs the RO will show a starting position. If the RO has been starting people in a certain manner and suddenly a shooter dsecides he wants to go freestyle, I personally would would ask him to unload and show clear so he could speak to the RM. I would then go back to running shooters. If the RM determined I was wrong then he can contact all the other shooters who started another way so they can reshoot or throw out the stage. Or replace me.

I agree an RO can show "A" starting position, but not the "ONLY" starting position unless it is in the WSB or clarified prior to the first shooter. If the stage briefing says start sitting in the chair, but doesn't say back against backrest, hands on knees or anything else, I believe shooters can have one cheek (or half a cheek) on the seat of the chair and everything else is for the shooter to decide within the rules.

This is just one more reason why it is important for stage ROs to read the WSB and ask questions before the first shooter hears the buzzer. If the RM tells the RO how to have them start vs. written in the SB, I think that is fine as long as all shooters are shown the same way. If a shooter questions it, call the RM who will say "Yes, that is the only allowed starting position". Putting it in the WSB could eliminate calls to the RM though.

IMO, what really matters is everyone gets the same treatment.

Edited November 16, 2011 by remoandiris

[lcs]

My impression is if you don't want the chair moved according to how the shooter wants it - you best define it.

Correct.

"Seated in chair, hands on knees," would allow you to move the chair facing any direction you want? Most stages I've seen have a picture of the chair and it's position.

3.2.2 requires the RO to read the WSB verbatim to each squad, hard to read a picture. However this would not stop the RO from showing a position. It was done at the Nationals for clarity.

Agree. Tthe picture is not part of the WSB, but the RO crew on a stage would probably ensure the start position is the same for all as you indicated in the previous post. I have not seen a major match yet that allowed a chair to be significantly moved.

[ima45dv8]

I think if a chair is involved its easiest to add in "back touching back of chair". That keeps people from standing on it or sitting side saddle....

Simply saying "back touching back of chair" has never stopped me from sitting sideways and still being compliant.

[XRe]

I agree WITHIN reason. Freestyle doesn't mean you can do it anyway you want to.

There are rules that define certain terms, etc (such as "facing downrange", and what a start position is to be if there's none specified, etc). So, freestyle is not exactly "free"...

I know of several case where the RO has read the WSB to a squad only to have a shooter try to proclaim that is not what is written. Most of the time when this occurs the RO will show a starting position. If the RO has been starting people in a certain manner and suddenly a shooter dsecides he wants to go freestyle, I personally would would ask him to unload and show clear so he could speak to the RM. I would then go back to running shooters. If the RM determined I was wrong then he can contact all the other shooters who started another way so they can reshoot or throw out the stage. Or replace me.

If you have to make stipulations that are outside the WSB, they need to be IN the WSB so that they are delivered consistently. The WSB is the bible as far as the stage is concerned. There's nothing wrong with an RO demonstrating the desired start position as long as it matches the WSB (and the rules, if using a term like "facing uprange", etc). If the RO is reading one thing, and demonstrating another, though - that's a problem.

[XRe]

"Seated in chair, hands on knees," would allow you to move the chair facing any direction you want? Most stages I've seen have a picture of the chair and it's position.

Yes, it would. Most matches solve this problem (if they want the shooter facing some way other than the targets) by nailing the chair down in some fashion so that it cannot be reoriented.

[Mark R]

For consistency sake, we always spray paint circles on the ground for the legs of the chairs to go in. That way the chair is always setup the same for all competitors. As for the sitting style, if we want competitors to sit a consistent way, then we explain it in the WSB, else we let 'em go freestyle. But the chair remains constant for all competitors. Since I know of no rule to support this, I have to write it in the WSB.

[lcs]

I agree WITHIN reason. Freestyle doesn't mean you can do it anyway you want to.

There are rules that define certain terms, etc (such as "facing downrange", and what a start position is to be if there's none specified, etc). So, freestyle is not exactly "free"...

I know of several case where the RO has read the WSB to a squad only to have a shooter try to proclaim that is not what is written. Most of the time when this occurs the RO will show a starting position. If the RO has been starting people in a certain manner and suddenly a shooter dsecides he wants to go freestyle, I personally would would ask him to unload and show clear so he could speak to the RM. I would then go back to running shooters. If the RM determined I was wrong then he can contact all the other shooters who started another way so they can reshoot or throw out the stage. Or replace me.

If you have to make stipulations that are outside the WSB, they need to be IN the WSB so that they are delivered consistently. The WSB is the bible as far as the stage is concerned. There's nothing wrong with an RO demonstrating the desired start position as long as it matches the WSB (and the rules, if using a term like "facing uprange", etc). If the RO is reading one thing, and demonstrating another, though - that's a problem.

Putting the chair in the same position for all - (nailed down or not)- would be consistent in my book.

[Outsydlooknin75]

Even if the wsb states back flat against back of chair?

I see where back touching could be taken multiple ways.

What I hate is chairs with arms, they aren't easy to get out of for widebodies.

And I don't like a chair that isn't movable especially if behind a table or something similar.

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[CHA-LEE]

The usual problem with seated in chair starting positions is that the person who writes the WSB ends up defining the start position in a way that isn't clear enough. For example, I attended a section match once where the WSB stated "Seated at table with back against back of chair and hands on knees. Gun is unloaded laying flat on table". The chair was not nailed down and everyone was starting directly behind the table. When it was my turn to shoot I moved the chair to the side of the table just up range of my gun. The RO said I couldn't do that because everyone else had started behind the table. I asked him to show me in the WSB where it says that I had to start behind the table. The WSB only stated that I had to be seated "AT" the table which I was. This didn't make the RO very happy that I found this loop hole in the WSB, but there was nothing he could do since the WSB was vague about the location of the chair. If the WSB would have said "Behind Table" then it would be pretty game-proof.

The best way to eliminate the gaming of a seated shooting position is to clearly dictate the exact starting position (seated with back against back of chair with hands on knees) and location (behind table) of the position. Otherwise you can simply stake down the chair so its physical location can not be manipulated.

Edited November 16, 2011 by CHA-LEE

[atbarr]

Some shooters are 5' tall and some are 6.5' tall, some weigh 90 lbs. and some weigh 350 lbs. The location of the chair can make a huge difference with each of these body types.

[lcs]

Some shooters are 5' tall and some are 6.5' tall, some weigh 90 lbs. and some weigh 350 lbs. The location of the chair can make a huge difference with each of these body types.

That is why (IMO) nailing down a chair or painting around the edges is not always the answer, unless the chair is a standalone prop. Once you introduce tables, the fixed position is not fair to all.

[Graham Smith]

Everyone understands "standing, facing downrange", they do it all the time and you really don't have to go into much detail in the WSB. But anytime you start to introduce things that people are not use to doing then some people will start to get creative, it is a game afterall. So, it behooves the stage designer to be as specific as possible about what the shooter is expected to do. And just because the first 50 people all do it the same way, that does not mean that the 51st person cannot do it differently if there is nothing that says they cannot - that's why we start people in boxes or with some part of the body touching something.

Perhaps: "Sitting in chair facing uprange with back to the chair back and hands palm down on X's on table." If someone can figure a way to still turn the chair sideways while doing that....

As an aside, I personally don't care for seated starts. They introduce the chance of some part of the persons gear getting hung up on the chair (range equipment malfunction?) and I've seen an RO get hit in the shins with a flying chair when the shooter launched themselves a bit too aggressively. I don't see that they add much of anything.

[aztecdriver]

Wow - good conversation.. I started multiquoting stuff I wanted to respond to and realized I was highlighting the entire thread. So, let me deal with some concepts that I see coming from this.

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis.

The problem is the entire stage, that includes the start position. I'm being challenged how to most efficiently to comply with the start position as required by the WSB. If I, as a shooter, find a way to help me out in the start position and still comply to the letter of the WSB, I should be able to use that - and doing so should be encouraged.

If a chair, as a prop, is free to move, then I should be free to move it. For example, a folding chair used to sit at a table and I can get up and pitch the thing to the side and that be "ok", short of having a requirement in the start position such as "both front feet of the chair on the marks", that chair is a moveable prop and if I choose to sit sideways and still comply with the letter of the WSB, it should be allowed. If the CRO determines upon receiving the stage with the chair - and before the RM signs off on the stage, dictates a specific positioning for the chair - then it should be written into the briefing - not merely read into the briefing - to be a consistent part of the stage.

The other portion of my concern is the concern with consistency. I believe it's not the ROs job to create consistency, but to enforce consistent application of the problem. Read another way, having competitors solve the start problem in different ways is not inconsistent as long as they consistently adhere to the stated start position.

Some ROs feel that it is their responsibility to make sure every competitor starts a COF in the exact same position, and in the exact same manner during the COF. I highly disagree with that. We are to present the stage as a problem, and allow the competitor to solve that problem as best they can and within the confines of what was written into the stage briefing. Anything that is of question should then be determined by examining the language and then applied. In the stage briefing of "Seated in chair, hands on knees", the competitor that turns the chair sideways and puts one cheek on the chair should be determined as legal - and encouraged. Are they seated in the chair - yes. Are they're hands on their knees, yes. "Are you ready" - that's it. Forcing a competitor to do something otherwise based on "consistency" and making sure everyone starts the same way is in violation of 1.1.5 as the problem is not being allowed to be solved in a freestyle manner.

As I said, the ROs can write it into the stage and make it part of the start position, and then again, I'll ask you, what purpose does that serve. Outside of safety concerns, this should be discouraged.

There has been reference to gaming the start position - I don't consider it as such. It's solving a problem. As we know, the more words you use to describe something, the more someone can tear it apart. KISS applies here... and don't be so ready to force competitors to have a part of a problem solved for them.

I worked a stage at this years nationals that was a table start with a chair that was as freestyle as you could get. Seated in chair, gun over X, magazines on the table or on your belt, hands touching a mug. You saw every variation one could imagine on placement, positioning, methodology you could think of - and it worked out great.

Edited November 16, 2011 by aztecdriver

[ima45dv8]

Even if the wsb states back flat against back of chair?

That's different from, "..."back touching back of chair".

[lcs]

Even if the wsb states back flat against back of chair?

That's different from, "..."back touching back of chair".

gamer

[ima45dv8]

Even if the wsb states back flat against back of chair?

That's different from, "..."back touching back of chair".

gamer

Damned straight, I am!

============

ETA: And proud of it!

[lcs]

Wow - good conversation.. I started multiquoting stuff I wanted to respond to and realized I was highlighting the entire thread. So, let me deal with some concepts that I see coming from this.

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis.

The problem is the entire stage, that includes the start position. I'm being challenged how to most efficiently to comply with the start position as required by the WSB. If I, as a shooter, find a way to help me out in the start position and still comply to the letter of the WSB, I should be able to use that - and doing so should be encouraged.

If a chair, as a prop, is free to move, then I should be free to move it. For example, a folding chair used to sit at a table and I can get up and pitch the thing to the side and that be "ok", short of having a requirement in the start position such as "both front feet of the chair on the marks", that chair is a moveable prop and if I choose to sit sideways and still comply with the letter of the WSB, it should be allowed. If the CRO determines upon receiving the stage with the chair - and before the RM signs off on the stage, dictates a specific positioning for the chair - then it should be written into the briefing - not merely read into the briefing - to be a consistent part of the stage.

The other portion of my concern is the concern with consistency. I believe it's not the ROs job to create consistency, but to enforce consistent application of the problem. Read another way, having competitors solve the start problem in different ways is not inconsistent as long as they consistently adhere to the stated start position.

Some ROs feel that it is their responsibility to make sure every competitor starts a COF in the exact same position, and in the exact same manner during the COF. I highly disagree with that. We are to present the stage as a problem, and allow the competitor to solve that problem as best they can and within the confines of what was written into the stage briefing. Anything that is of question should then be determined by examining the language and then applied. In the stage briefing of "Seated in chair, hands on knees", the competitor that turns the chair sideways and puts one cheek on the chair should be determined as legal - and encouraged. Are they seated in the chair - yes. Are they're hands on their knees, yes. "Are you ready" - that's it. Forcing a competitor to do something otherwise based on "consistency" and making sure everyone starts the same way is in violation of 1.1.5 as the problem is not being allowed to be solved in a freestyle manner.

As I said, the ROs can write it into the stage and make it part of the start position, and then again, I'll ask you, what purpose does that serve. Outside of safety concerns, this should be discouraged.

There has been reference to gaming the start position - I don't consider it as such. It's solving a problem. As we know, the more words you use to describe something, the more someone can tear it apart. KISS applies here... and don't be so ready to force competitors to have a part of a problem solved for them.

I worked a stage at this years nationals that was a table start with a chair that was as freestyle as you could get. Seated in chair, gun over X, magazines on the table or on your belt, hands touching a mug. You saw every variation one could imagine on placement, positioning, methodology you could think of - and it worked out great.

when did the "start position' become freestyle ?

[atbarr]

Would both hands touching the X's on the table, make it equal for all shooters?

[aztecdriver]

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis.

The problem is the entire stage, that includes the start position. I'm being challenged how to most efficiently to comply with the start position as required by the WSB. If I, as a shooter, find a way to help me out in the start position and still comply to the letter of the WSB, I should be able to use that - and doing so should be encouraged.

when did the "start position' become freestyle ?

Are you telling me the start position is not part of the competitive problem?