Compelling a shooter to use a staged "start" mag/moon clip

[spanky]

That's why I'm here.

I do have "first magazine to be used placed on opposite barrel..."

Yeah, that is just the "start position".

You need to get it into the Procedure. Something like...

Procedure:

On signal, initially load gun with ammo from the barrel only, then engage targets from within the shooting area.

[edit to add] Failing to do the load from the barrel, as I wrote, would be ONE instance of not following the stage procedure. So, just 1 penalty.

Thanks flex. That's what I was asking. Sometimes I need you articulate gooder.

I am the stage designer. the only intent I was going for while making this stage was to do something different. I wasn't thinking of making things difficult or a test of skill, just something different. also I had the shooter seated in chair facing downrange with arms crossed over top of chair. Spanky decided to change that as well but again the only thing I was going for was something different.

lilB

I missed the hand position but I'll fix it. And the chair is facing down range. What else did I miss?

[Flexmoney]

The question will come up... "Can I put two/three mags on the barrel?"

Best to answer that ahead of time and cover it in the WSB.

[Skydiver]

Flex makes a good point about covering allowing additional ammo to be staged on the barrel.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Skydiver

[Skydiver]

That's why I'm here.

I do have "first magazine to be used placed on opposite barrel..."

Yeah, that is just the "start position".

You need to get it into the Procedure. Something like...

Procedure:

On signal, initially load gun with ammo from the barrel only, then engage targets from within the shooting area.

[edit to add] Failing to do the load from the barrel, as I wrote, would be ONE instance of not following the stage procedure. So, just 1 penalty.

Thanks flex. That's what I was asking. Sometimes I need you articulate gooder.

I am the stage designer. the only intent I was going for while making this stage was to do something different. I wasn't thinking of making things difficult or a test of skill, just something different. also I had the shooter seated in chair facing downrange with arms crossed over top of chair. Spanky decided to change that as well but again the only thing I was going for was something different.

lilB

I missed the hand position but I'll fix it. And the chair is facing down range. What else did I miss?

If you only stipulate "shooter seated in chair facing down range with arms crossed over top of chair", the lets the shooter turn the chair 90 degrees, have the shooter sit sort of side saddle, and still comply with the start position. I don't know whether you care or not if the shooter decides to game the start position that much.

[Nik Habicht]

If you only stipulate "shooter seated in chair facing down range with arms crossed over top of chair", the lets the shooter turn the chair 90 degrees, have the shooter sit sort of side saddle, and still comply with the start position. I don't know whether you care or not if the shooter decides to game the start position that much.

No, it doesn't.....

See 4.5.1:

4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion of the Range Officer.

4.5.1.1 Exception - a competitor is allowed to move stone, sand or other loose material at the starting position for the purposes of achieving level and stable footing.

Also see 8.2.2:

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3

[aztecdriver]

If you only stipulate "shooter seated in chair facing down range with arms crossed over top of chair", the lets the shooter turn the chair 90 degrees, have the shooter sit sort of side saddle, and still comply with the start position. I don't know whether you care or not if the shooter decides to game the start position that much.

No, it doesn't.....

See 4.5.1:

4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion of the Range Officer.

4.5.1.1 Exception - a competitor is allowed to move stone, sand or other loose material at the starting position for the purposes of achieving level and stable footing.

Also see 8.2.2:

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3

If the chair moves - I can move it. If you don't want it to move, fix it to the ground.

I'd prefer to see - put the chair in a box, set the start position and let them comply with it how they see fit.

[Skydiver]

If you only stipulate "shooter seated in chair facing down range with arms crossed over top of chair", the lets the shooter turn the chair 90 degrees, have the shooter sit sort of side saddle, and still comply with the start position. I don't know whether you care or not if the shooter decides to game the start position that much.

No, it doesn't.....

See 4.5.1:

4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion of the Range Officer.

4.5.1.1 Exception - a competitor is allowed to move stone, sand or other loose material at the starting position for the purposes of achieving level and stable footing.

Also see 8.2.2:

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3

Hmmm. Good point!

I guess I could have applied procedurals in the following cases:

1) In CM 99-33 Raw Deal, when the shooter adjusted the chair all the way back in Box A during "make ready" so that the chair would not hang up on his gear when he stood up to shoot.

2) In CM 99-43 Color Blind, when a really tall shooter adjusted the chair back so that his knees were barely under the table.

3) In stage, when the shooter stood up and the chair hooked on to his last mag and he dragged the chair about a foot from the start position.

In the first and second cases, I thought that it was perfectly fine because there were no distances stipulated for the chair positions and they still complied with the "intent" of the classifier.

In the third case, thinking back now, should this have been considered REF and a reason for a reshoot?

[Flexmoney]

You guys are drifting into chair talk.

[Nik Habicht]

If you only stipulate "shooter seated in chair facing down range with arms crossed over top of chair", the lets the shooter turn the chair 90 degrees, have the shooter sit sort of side saddle, and still comply with the start position. I don't know whether you care or not if the shooter decides to game the start position that much.

No, it doesn't.....

See 4.5.1:

4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion of the Range Officer.

4.5.1.1 Exception - a competitor is allowed to move stone, sand or other loose material at the starting position for the purposes of achieving level and stable footing.

Also see 8.2.2:

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3

If the chair moves - I can move it. If you don't want it to move, fix it to the ground.

I'd prefer to see - put the chair in a box, set the start position and let them comply with it how they see fit.

As the RO, I get to approve the position the chair. Simply won't start you, if you do anything too crazy -- other than say reasonable motion to accommodate your particular body type/size.....

And yes, ideally this would be nailed down during design/construction. Chairs however, especially when in vicinity to tables, should not be nailed down, to be able to adjust to the various sizes of competitors.....

Doesn't mean you can rotate it.....

[spanky]

yeah, the chair is easy to fix. let's get back to staged mags.

[spanky]

[wide45]

Can I engage targets as visable and load the gun with the staged mag?

[spanky]

doh.

that would leave an interesting loophole, though.

Edited November 16, 2011 by spanky

[spanky]

"Upon signal load gun using magazine staged on barrel only and then engage targets as visible from within fault lines."

[Skydiver]

"Upon signal load gun using magazine staged on barrel only and then engage targets as visible from within fault lines."

And if I run out of bullets with that staged mag, do I get a penalty for loading with additional mags from my belt?

[ima45dv8]

"Upon signal load gun using magazine staged on barrel only and then engage targets as visible from within fault lines."

And if I run out of bullets with that staged mag, do I get a penalty for loading with additional mags from my belt?

Why would you? It says, "All other ammo on shooter's belt".

[Skydiver]

"Upon signal load gun using magazine staged on barrel only and then engage targets as visible from within fault lines."

And if I run out of bullets with that staged mag, do I get a penalty for loading with additional mags from my belt?

Why would you? It says, "All other ammo on shooter's belt".

I must be misreading the "only" to mean that is the only magazine that can loaded in the gun.

[Flexmoney]

I must be misreading the "only" to mean that is the only magazine that can loaded in the gun.

How does the wording in post #22 work for you?

[Skydiver]

I must be misreading the "only" to mean that is the only magazine that can loaded in the gun.

How does the wording in post #22 work for you?

That works better for me. ( Note though, that English isn't my first language. To make matters worse, my school was teaching English with American books in some grades, and then British books in others. Got really used to spelling things both ways. )

[spanky]

I knew I forgot something. I'll add initially although my thought process was that, well, I didn't think anyone would actually think they couldn't load more after that first mag of ammo was done.

Edited November 17, 2011 by spanky

[Alan Adamson]

if trying to maintain a *specific* start orientation for the shooter, just stipulate it...

"Chair positioned at marks and facing directly up-range. Shooter seated in chair, chest against backrest, facing down range with arms folded on on top of seat back, shoulders, hips and feet squared to stage, straddling the chair and positioned/pointed down range. ... "

Alan