joebob Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 joebob... the gun broke. Regardless of whether you sold it or not.... a broken gun is always a bummer. Not the end of the world... try to keep it in perspective. Good luck. You know that is the probably the best advice the thread. Ive got a bunch of other things going on that could use my attention way more than a broken toy as Im sure others could say the same thing. Thanks for putting things back into perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Once he has delivered the product that he promised, his obligations end. How does the buyer know that has happened? Maybe the seller isn't legally liable, but no matter how you cut it, if the buyer feels cheated, he's going to tell everyone about it. Hence.....the reputation issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Once he has delivered the product that he promised, his obligations end. How does the buyer know that has happened? Maybe the seller isn't legally liable, but no matter how you cut it, if the buyer feels cheated, he's going to tell everyone about it. Hence.....the reputation issue. +1 And probably others as well.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 (edited) Once he has delivered the product that he promised, his obligations end. How does the buyer know that has happened? Maybe the seller isn't legally liable, but no matter how you cut it, if the buyer feels cheated, he's going to tell everyone about it. Hence.....the reputation issue. I didn't say anything about legal liability. I don't know if he's legally liable or not, or even what court would hear such a case. That's not the point. The point is that you buy used goods at your own peril, and IF the seller does anything, it's altruism, not a requirement. Selling a used item doesn't make you an insurer. The buyer admits he shot the gun and it broke later. Is there really any doubt that he delivered a functional, unbroken article? You guys are going awfully far against a guy who has been awfully honest and frank, even when the other side isn't accusing him of any wrongdoing at all. If you guys don't actually believe that he delivered an unbroken gun, just say so, and say that you're calling him dishonest. Suggesting that he's somehow culpable because a gun that he sold broke with ammo that he didn't load, after the seller had it for a while and it worked perfectly fine, just doesn't make sense to me. It's unfortunate that it broke, but it's not the seller's fault, and he has no way of knowing what the buyer did to it. Chalk it up as a defect in the gun and use the warranty. That's what it's for. Edited October 6, 2011 by twodownzero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joebob Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 Once he has delivered the product that he promised, his obligations end. How does the buyer know that has happened? Maybe the seller isn't legally liable, but no matter how you cut it, if the buyer feels cheated, he's going to tell everyone about it. Hence.....the reputation issue. I know the buyer was happy with the purchase because they told after they received the gun that the "loved it" and were happy with the purchase through a text message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 (edited) Deleted post. Sorry. Edited October 6, 2011 by Chills1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Us BE'ers aren't really concerned about doing what is legal in this instance, but rather doing what we ....or some of us...perceive as being fair or the right thing to do. Once again, this is not about the law. Disconnect any connection to the "law" from the discussion completely, and just ask yourself who owes a duty in this instance. Duty is an ethical concept. In the universe of moral rules, "do your duty" is among them. "Don't cause harm to others" might be another. Begin by asking yourself what the duties are in this scenario. When the rubber meets the road, it's duty that determines the obligation of the seller in this instance. I'm not talking about a legal duty (nor, honestly, do I have any idea how or if such a concept is applicable to this situation), but rather, what your moral sensibilities suggest as the duty of the buyer and seller in this instance. When it comes to selling something, once two people agree to sell something, my intuition suggests that the duties are that the seller must produce the product and that the buyer must produce the money. These are the most important duties--payment and delivery. On top of that, there are more debatable duties. Who insures the gun while in transit, for both damage or loss? If the buyer doesn't ask enough questions and is disappointed, what remedies does he/she have? These and other things are the more "debatable" questions of duty. My personal moral sensibilities might be different than yours, but I'm not a complete hermit or a libertine so social custom has to play a role in this. My intuition suggests that even if you believe broadly that the seller has a responsibility for the item until it is in the hand of the buyer, and that the seller must represent their product fairly, etc., that even then, the seller is in a very tough position if he must insure the product for some period of time thereafter, because issues totally beyond his control (what ammo is used, etc.) may determine whether it breaks or not. If the broken product is due to a defect in the manufacture of the product, I can't imagine why anyone would blame the seller rather than the manufacturer. This moves us to the next, nearly universal moral rule that I announced, which is to not harm other people. Here, it's hard to see how the seller has caused any harm to the buyer. What moral culpability does the seller have if the facts are as he said? I just find it hard to believe that the seller has done anything wrong if the buyer admits that he/she received an intact article that was as described. If it turned out that there was some hidden damage or misrepresentation about the condition, that'd be a different story. But I have bought and sold a bunch of stuff on here, including entire firearms, accessories, magazines, belts, you name it. Did I always get 100% of what I expected? The answer to that is no. Sometimes an item is nicer than expected and I might have got 120% of what I expected. In other instances, it's not quite what I expected and I get 80%. That's the cost of doing business. Other people's moral sensibilities might lead to a different outcome, but this isn't about my chosen profession or who I am (or who the buyer and sellers are). This is a question about social custom, if for no other reason than nobody could afford to sue in this instance. If I were the seller, I'd consider taking the item back if the seller paid the return shipping/transfer in a kind gesture. But I don't think anything, including my own personal morals, would compel such an extension of altruism. In the alternative, I'd consider splitting the cost of the return shipping to STI, if STI wouldn't cover it. In no case would I feel obligated to personally warranty an article that I didn't make, that may have broken for reasons unrelated to any action for which I was responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Is there really any doubt that he delivered a functional, unbroken article? I personally believe the seller sent the gun thinking everything was just fine. But......put yourelf in the buyer's shoes and ask that question again. Humor me for a second......you buy a gun from a forum member that's used with an issue that was disclosed and repaired. You get the gun, fire a few rounds through it and the link pin breaks. Maybe you know about these guns, maybe you don't, but now there is a big discussion about it on an internet forum and many people are saying the barrel wasn't fit correctly. You start to wonder, did STI really install a barrel incorrectly? Huh? Did the seller get out his dremel and start modifying the gun? I'd start wondering all kinds of things..... I've seen people do some pretty squirrely stuff with these guns. My buddy's stepdad bought a Dick Heine 1911. He waited for years to get it. And the first thing he does is take the gun apart and start f*#king with it to the point that the gun became unreliable. I'm not saying the seller did that. I'm just saying that I would wonder what the hell was going on if I were the buyer in this story. As the buyer, I don't know the seller. I don't know what he's done with the gun. I don't know if he's honest. All I know is I paid for a gun that was "functional" and a link pin breaks right away. As the buyer, my b.s. alarm would start going off, and I just might start to feel taken advantage of. I might go so far as to tell everyone about my experience with joebob on the enos forum. Tim, I apologize if I misrepresented what you said in this thread. That was not my intention. I'll be a gentleman and give you the last word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 CSE, I don't disagree with you. I suspect, however, that if a link pin broke, it was too short rather than too long, and I know of no way to make the barrel fit tighter (rather than looser) by messing with it. It seems to me that the likely cause was that someone tried to leave the gun just a bit too tight. But I do agree with you it looks fishy--but why not let STI check it out first and let them come to their (much more informed) conclusion before demanding your money back? It seems like the most equitable to all parties involved to at least give STI the chance to make it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joebob Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 Is there really any doubt that he delivered a functional, unbroken article? I personally believe the seller sent the gun thinking everything was just fine. But......put yourelf in the buyer's shoes and ask that question again. Humor me for a second......you buy a gun from a forum member that's used with an issue that was disclosed and repaired. You get the gun, fire a few rounds through it and the link pin breaks. Maybe you know about these guns, maybe you don't, but now there is a big discussion about it on an internet forum and many people are saying the barrel wasn't fit correctly. You start to wonder, did STI really install a barrel incorrectly? Huh? Did the seller get out his dremel and start modifying the gun? I'd start wondering all kinds of things..... I've seen people do some pretty squirrely stuff with these guns. My buddy's stepdad bought a Dick Heine 1911. He waited for years to get it. And the first thing he does is take the gun apart and start f*#king with it to the point that the gun became unreliable. I'm not saying the seller did that. I'm just saying that I would wonder what the hell was going on if I were the buyer in this story. As the buyer, I don't know the seller. I don't know what he's done with the gun. I don't know if he's honest. All I know is I paid for a gun that was "functional" and a link pin breaks right away. As the buyer, my b.s. alarm would start going off, and I just might start to feel taken advantage of. I might go so far as to tell everyone about my experience with joebob on the enos forum. Tim, I apologize if I misrepresented what you said in this thread. That was not my intention. I'll be a gentleman and give you the last word. I do think you have made some great points in this discussion but i do want to point out one thing in this last post. You find it reasonable to say that you dont know if the seller is honest and what he had done to the gun before he sent it off to the buyer but some poeple think it is unreasonable for me to say the same thing about the buyer like I dont know if they are honest or they are telling me the whole story (again not making an accusation). By using your logic then I would have the right to say that I dont know if the buyer is honest and I dont know what the heck they did to the gun once they got it. But the buyer got the oppertunity to put their hands on the gun and look at it before they decided to have it transfered to them and they got take it home and do any other inspecting they wanted to do before they decided to shoot it. So should I get the right to look at the gun before I return the money? They were given they right and replied that they were happy, so shouldnt I get to say well let me just be sure there wasnt anything you did wrong before I entertain the idea of returning all their money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old506 Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 (edited) The FFL is complete. Have them send it to STI to be fixed then get down to business. If the gun comes back fixed from STI and they still don't want it you may offer to buy it back minus any expense on your part (additionalal FFL cost etc.). If it comes back fixed from STI, why would they want to return it? If it cost them something to send to STI to be fixed then reimburse them. Edited October 6, 2011 by old506 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joebob Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 Is there really any doubt that he delivered a functional, unbroken article? As the buyer, I don't know the seller. I don't know what he's done with the gun. I don't know if he's honest. All I know is I paid for a gun that was "functional" and a link pin breaks right away. As the buyer, my b.s. alarm would start going off, and I just might start to feel taken advantage of. I might go so far as to tell everyone about my experience with joebob on the enos forum. Im going to going to switch around buyer/seller and a few words so you can see what I mean: As the seller, I dont know the buyer. I dont know what he's done with the gun. I don't know if he's honest. All I know is I sent a "functianal" gun and a link pin breaks right away. As the seller, my b.s. alarm would start going off, and I just might start to feel taken advantage of. I might go so far as to tell everyone about my experience with _________ on the enos forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuyC Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Joebob was a local shooter to my area. I have seen this gun run in at least three matches. He has seen some of my guns and wanted to build a custom gun. He ordered all the parts for that gun and sent it off to the smith. He purchased a STI trojan from me and decided to sell the edge to recoup parts cost. I glanced over the gun before he sold it. I even tried to talk a friend into buying this gun. This edge was in pristine condition the grip was not even undercut. I knew about the slide stop braking and had seen the broken slide stop, but that is not related to the link failure. There was just no way to know that the link was going to brake, especially since the gun was in that good of condition. I can assure you that this gun was sold in good faith, When the gun comes back from STI it will be like new. On the other hand the buyer probably inspected it and thought there is no way there could be anything wrong with it. If I was in this same situation as the buyer I would be pissed no doubt. If STI is going to warranty it then the buyer gets the closest thing to a new gun because there is not a scratch on it. This is all over pretty much $50. If he returns the money it will cost $35 to ship it to STI and he could easly sell it for what he sold it for originally. If the buyer sends it to STI he will be out $35 for shipping. The biggest issue is just the inconvience of sending it in or returning it. If he decides to return it he is out maybe $35-50 and ten days of waiting for it to be repaired. If the buyer decides to send it in then they get what they wanted originally but has to wait 10 more days Either way its inconvenient, but its not like this gun is destroyed, and they are arguing over $2000. Someone just make a decision who is going to spend $35 and send it to STI. like I said it is a good looking Edge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jar Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 If I were involved on either side, I think I'd be happy with the seller paying the buyer's cost to ship to STI. If STI fixes it and it's good to go buyer keeps it. If not, negotiate from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 I think this thread needs to be closed. It hits too close to airing the laundry on the forum. (Many have figured out who the buyer and seller is.) To the Opening poster...you asked for opinions. You got them. - Admin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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