international travel with pistols?

[bigphiltheshootist]

Just wondering how the competitors in this class travel with their comp guns? and how they deal with ammo restrictions and such especially when shooting your special blend reloads. I flew from LAX to CHI and needed a letter from my congressman almost..

Specifically looking at the the guys and gals going to the world shoot matches.

Edited September 20, 2011 by bigphiltheshootist

[shred]

The most-most important thing is to plan extra time, relax and keep up a good attitude, no matter what BS happens, and it will, lots of it. Keep up the polite, friendly-but-I'm-supposed-to-be-here-doing-this attitude (mixed with "I can't believe the amount of paperwork and crap HQ makes you do" sympathy with whatever official you're talking to) and you'll eventually get where you're going.

The next most important thing is the muddy, off-centered, smeared and pixelated fax signed by El Jefe-General-Superiorino DuLocalATF. Get that and the getting-guns-into-where-you're-going is good. Print several copies. Sometimes this is just a match invite. Be sure that's all it takes if this is all you get.

The second is the US Customs form for Personal Items Taken Abroad. Get one of those with just your guns on it and get the nice pretty stamp. Not only does it get your guns back into the US (although they rarely ask), it's treated as a US Gun License elsewhere and given far more weight than it should. Make several copies of this too. A couple copies of your passport page also wouldn't hurt.

Third, check with the IPSC forums on where-not-to-fly-through on the way to the match. Some places (London, Amsterdam, Tokyo, Jakata, etc) have wacky and prohibitive rules on gun & ammo transits. Odds are somebody else there has flown most of the route you want to take and can provide very good advice.

Fourth, when you book your ticket, tell the airline you plan to fly with sporting firearms and ask them what their rules are. Ask in e-mail so you have an answer printed out and handy at check-in. Be sure to ask & confirm well in advance. Some airlines won't accept firearms without advance notice. The best bet is to stay on a US carrier if at all possible, but they don't always go where you want to.

Once you have all the paper ducks in a row, then pack your stuff as usual-- locked case for the guns, etc. Make sure to have enough space in your gun case for your magazines if they want them there (item #4). Also check ammo regulations (#4) carefully-- in Greece for example, ammo has to travel all by itself, as do the guns. It's a good idea to have all your ammo in a box anyway. Sometimes you can petition the airlines to carry more than the 'guideline' of 5KG of ammo, sometimes you can't. Sometimes they check the weight, sometimes they don't. Bring a non-shooting friend if you want to stay within the rules. Some places hollowpoints and various calibers are illegal, so check that too.

Generally a local match contact will meet you at the airport-- try to coordinate this and get their mobile # in case something untoward happens.

When you come back, and go through US customs, get a firearms declaration tag for your guns before re-checking them to your final destination. I got a nice underground tour of the Atlanta baggage system once when I didn't. Good thing we had a 3-hour layover.

[bigphiltheshootist]

Thanks for the reply. I wonder if the Todds and Daves of the world have to do all this stuff too. Seems like a lot of hassle.

[ima45dv8]

Thanks for the reply. I wonder if the Todds and Daves of the world have to do all this stuff too. Seems like a lot of hassle.

???

Of course they do.

[bigphiltheshootist]

The Tsa limited me to ten pounds of ammo. That is not a carrier restriction. That only provides for roughly 250 rounds. Seems light to shoot a comp.

[ima45dv8]

The Tsa limited me to ten pounds of ammo. That is not a carrier restriction. That only provides for roughly 250 rounds. Seems light to shoot a comp.

I don't mean this to sound flippant, but I doubt they care if that's not enough to shoot a full match.

I could be wrong. Ask them.

[bigphiltheshootist]

My Point exactly. THese guys shoot precise loads so how do they do it? Onsite loading capabilities? Do they shoot factory ammo? DO they just buy it there? That's what I am getting at.

Not to sound flippant myself, but when was the last time you "asked" a government agency anything?

[Rob Boudrie]

The Tsa limited me to ten pounds of ammo. That is not a carrier restriction. That only provides for roughly 250 rounds. Seems light to shoot a comp.

It is an airline limit, not a TSA limit, however, the industry standard is "5kg or 11lbs, whichever is more" (yes, they really write things like that). The only airline I know of with a higher limit is Air Alaska which offer s a 50lb limit on domestic flights only.

My guess is that TSA is aware of the airline limitation and was using that as the basis for the limit imposed upon you.

[bigphiltheshootist]

@#$$%!!! You must be right. I stand corrected. Flying with this stuff is a lot of work. I fired off a call to the watch Commander at LAX, he agreed it was a cluster. I told him i was concerned because i was asked to unbox and show clear right at the ticket counter. He said there was nothing he could do. I refused the ticket agent and instead showed him that I had disassembled the firearms. This sufficed. It was a weird scenario. I asked the agent how he felt. He really didn't know how to feel. I told him that plenty of idiots own guns and showing clear in a crowded ticket area was a good way to let a round fly.

[shred]

For this World Shoot, Jarrett (and Rebecca) stepped up and organized a competitor ammo shipment to Greece for those that wanted to ship 1000 rounds over there. Others I know are bringing spouses and friends with their 11 lbs each.

You can also get match ammo at the match. $25/box or so, but at least you know it's going to be there and you don't have to worry about making the PF.

Showing clear to the ticket counter agent has been standard for a long long time. Around here lately, they mostly don't ask and just send you over to TSA with the special tag, but they can do more or less whatever they remember from last time they took the 'passengers-with-guns' class. After many many flights, I've found it's not worth arguing. If they look lost or suggest something really off, I prompt them with "last time, we did..."

[ima45dv8]

My Point exactly. THese guys shoot precise loads so how do they do it? Onsite loading capabilities? Do they shoot factory ammo? DO they just buy it there? That's what I am getting at.

Not to sound flippant myself, but when was the last time you "asked" a government agency anything?

Most folks (including the top-dogs you mentioned) take their own home-grown ammo. Some take a friend or family member so that person can carry another 11 lbs. of ammo. Another common option is shipping the ammo ahead via common carrier.

I agree it's a cluster, but whay can you do? It's their field. We have to play by their rules.

[bigphiltheshootist]

Finally, the answer. Thanks Mark And Shred.

[ima45dv8]

@#$%!!! You must be right. I stand corrected. Flying with this stuff is a lot of work. I fired off a call to the watch Commander at LAX, he agreed it was a cluster. I told him i was concerned because i was asked to unbox and show clear right at the ticket counter. He said there was nothing he could do. I refused the ticket agent and instead showed him that I had disassembled the firearms. This sufficed. It was a weird scenario. I asked the agent how he felt. He really didn't know how to feel. I told him that plenty of idiots own guns and showing clear in a crowded ticket area was a good way to let a round fly.

And it's hardly consistent. Flying to Vegas for the nationals in 2009 I had to do the whole bit in Atlanta. On the return flight I was told there was no need to have TSA inspect and approve my firearms shipment prior to departure (?).

I was sweating bullets when I landed at Hartsfield, thinking the TSA would be waiting with bracelets.

[shred]

@#$%!!! You must be right. I stand corrected. Flying with this stuff is a lot of work. I fired off a call to the watch Commander at LAX, he agreed it was a cluster. I told him i was concerned because i was asked to unbox and show clear right at the ticket counter. He said there was nothing he could do. I refused the ticket agent and instead showed him that I had disassembled the firearms. This sufficed. It was a weird scenario. I asked the agent how he felt. He really didn't know how to feel. I told him that plenty of idiots own guns and showing clear in a crowded ticket area was a good way to let a round fly.

And it's hardly consistent. Flying to Vegas for the nationals in 2009 I had to do the whole bit in Atlanta. On the return flight I was told there was no need to have TSA inspect and approve my firearms shipment prior to departure (?).

I was sweating bullets when I landed at Hartsfield, thinking the TSA would be waiting with bracelets.

They used to do that-- throw it through the scanner and unless the operator disliked what they saw, let it go (kind of pucker-inducing when the scanner isn't in the lobby). Now they seem to be swiping every gun bag that comes through.

I flew last weekend and the story I got from a couple TSA agents in different airports if you don't hit on the explosives swipe (both times my bag did ), they throw it on the belt with everything else.

Bags are secondarily screened at other times in the process, so keep your ears open in airports for your name to be called to go open a locked case for inspection.

Just be sure that Firearms Declaration tag is front-and-center when they do.

[bigphiltheshootist]

It really seems as though this would be a great place to insert a one size policy.

[ima45dv8]

I have to confess I've deliberately stopped by our local indoor range on the way to the airport and walked around in all the lead/gunpowder dust in front of the firing lines to see if my shoes would trigger anything. So far, no issues.

Yeah, I know. I need another hobby.

[bigphiltheshootist]

Lol. I worked for them for 6 months before going to the Academy, and I have to say, I was not impressed. I just wanted to do something for my country you know. I rubbed a lot of supervisors the wrong way because I was always finding drugs on people. They frowned on that. So I became a LEO. Not a LEO any longer thanks to the recession but I can say that except for an Air Marshal or FFDO, you are your best protection.

[Pizzim]

I have to confess I've deliberately stopped by our local indoor range on the way to the airport and walked around in all the lead/gunpowder dust in front of the firing lines to see if my shoes would trigger anything. So far, no issues.Yeah, I know. I need another hobby.

I triggered the sniffer once leaving Vegas. Stopped but the indoor range before my flight as i had nothing better to do. Couple of hours later and there i was standing on the painted shoe prints ... the range visit didnt cross my mind until they started questioning me, once i mentioned that i was at the range everyone calmed down

[shred]

They claim powder residue won't set it off. I suspect some unburnt powder has gotten onto my bag over the years and that probably does, containing nitroglycerin and all.

[Cardinal]

It is an airline limit, not a TSA limit, however, the industry standard is "5kg or 11lbs, whichever is more" (yes, they really write things like that). The only airline I know of with a higher limit is Air Alaska which offer s a 50lb limit on domestic flights only.

Actually its ICAO-TI (International Civil Aviation Organization - Technical Instructions for the Safe Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air) (which comes into play on international flights), which states:

"with the approval of the operator(s), as checked baggage only, securely packaged cartridges (UN 0012 or UN 0014 only), in Division 1.4S, in quantities not exceeding 5 kg gross mass per person for that person’s own use, excluding ammunition with explosive or incendiary projectiles. Allowances for more than one person must not be combined into one or more packages"

IATA can further restrict the amount if they want to.

[Cardinal]

Arrived in Rhodes yesterday and thought I would pass along some advice.

For those of you who will be flying via Athens to rhodes, make sure that airline (for example aegean) is notified that you are traveling with a firearm and ammo. Mine wasnt and it caused problems

In Athens i had to extract the ammo and gun from the suitcases because those had to go seperatly since they were security items. And picked up at the lost and found in rhodes.

So make sure you have a case for you gun and not just a bag.

Also, this can cause problems for those of you traveling with more than the alloted 5kg of ammo since you might be forced to leave it behind in Athens....

[bigphiltheshootist]

Good tip. Thanks for posting.

[hrt4me]

does anyone have any specific tips for traveling/flying with a pistol and ammo to Germany?

[Carlos]

does anyone have any specific tips for traveling/flying with a pistol and ammo to Germany?

I think Nick is originally from Germany; he might have some insights.

Wife's also German (great folks, BTW), but she finds my interest in guns "odd" and has no useful experience to pass along.

[shred]

By airline incompetence, I had to surprise import and re-export two pistols into and out of Germany on the way home from the World Shoot. The stupid airline hadn't put the guns in my PNR like I asked (Rule 2: make sure the airline you are flying on (not necessarily the one listed on the ticket if it's a code-share) knows you are bringing guns and follow their hoops-- 'taint like in the USA where you just show up at the airport and declare there. Best to double-check, which I failed to do)

Anyway, here's the story-- After arguing unsuccessfully with the contract check-in people in Athens, they would only check our luggage to Munich, not all the way to the US.

We had to get off the plane, go to the baggage claim agent and collect the guns they wouldn't check through (they treat the gun bags specially there, and are only turned over to you once you show passports and claim checks, so you often have to go to the lost-luggage office) and the baggage guy took us to Customs. We told him our story "We just need to check these through to the US and get out of here" (Rule 1a: be polite, maintain good attitude, at least externally). The customs guy wanted to see my match invitation and gun permits (handed to him with a "hows your Greek?", since that's what they were written in). He noted my name and the serial numbers were on the paperwork in what looked like appropriate spots (Rule 1b: always carry extra copies of the gun permits. Euro addendum: Always bring the match invitation as well), listened to our story ("we just want to leave") and said "ok, I'll let you in, but the Federal Police have to let you out with the guns". Ok, how does that work?

Exporting is handled by the Federal Police. They check the guns at the airport check-in counter. So, we have to leave the secured area of the airport, exit to the check-in counters (at this point carrying quite a quantity of guns and ammo onto the streets of Munich) and check in again. The lady at check-in spoke good English, but was not up on dealing with firearms-- she kept looking stuff up on the computer and coming back to us with questions "how much ammo?" "How is it packed", etc. (Rule 1a: always be polite, Rule 2 know & follow airline hoops)

Eventually we got our tickets printed and bag tags done and she calls the Federal Police to check the guns. They wanted to see the guns and check the paperwork and serial numbers again. They also wanted to see my "US Gun Permit". Since I had the customs form (Rule 1c: Get the US customs form! It is golden overseas), I handed him that, he looked at it and said "it looks like you printed this yourself" (which as it turned out, I had, but Customs officially stamped it for me), said OK, and we were on our way.

It took about 45 minutes. I so wanted the passport control guy on our way back into the secured area of the airport to ask "How long was your stay in Germany?", so I could say "about 45 minutes", but alas he didn't.

Remember all that Rule 1a politeness? Well, flights to the USA have another layer of extra-special screening when you get to the gate, since they don't seem to think the Germans are thorough enough . That line looked to be about 45 minutes long, but as it turned out, the Federal Police guy happened by on patrol (we'd snagged a snack and beer after plowing through the first layer of passports and security, so he hadn't just followed us). He took us right past the line and into the gate.

I do not suggest just showing up in Germany with a pistol and ammo. You'll want at least a match invite and whatever permits are required for non-EU citizens. The best thing would be to have a local contact that can help you with the airport and associated bureaucracy. A lot of the matches have somebody tagged to do that and will have somebody at the airport or on-call for emergencies, which is really nice.