Steel Challenge stages

[ErikW]

Brian, before the recent forum crash you said you were thinking about how you could describe the most efficient target engagement order for the various stages of the steel challenge.

I suggested you look at the official course descriptions and for each stage just list the targets in the order they should be shot. With that post lost, I hereby suggest it again. Or, save it for your book.

What would you recommend to practice steel challenge stages without the real deal steel? Paper plates? Pepper poppers set heavy? My range doesn't have plates which can be hit repeatedly, just falling plates, which I don't want to be walking down and resetting every 3 seconds.

[benos]

OK Eric,

I've thought of a way to post the target orders, but I don't have time to do it now. I will list the stage name, and then the order of the targets when viewed from left to right AS THEY APPEAR FROM THE SHOOTERS BOX. I will list my preference, and a few other popular orders.

If you can't set up the steel, just staple paper plates to target sticks for the plates, and use IPSC targtets for the monster rectangles.

Brian

[dave pasos]

Brian, thats a great idea!  How important is the draw?

[Patrick Sweeney]

Gentlemen,

I spent an entire Steel Challenge dogging the Super squads and writing down the time to first shot for all those shooters.  Very instructive.  (I'm tempted to reveal the numbers after Brian tells us what time really is, but my numbers are a few years old)

The magic number in 1993 was 1.20 seconds.  Every single one of the top shooters could be counted on to get the gun out and a hit on steel in that time.

"So slow!" you say.  Consider, two dozen shooters, seven stages, five runs each, 840 timed shots.  Guess how many needed a second shot on the first plate?  Less than ten.  The secret is, time to the HIT.  Under pressure.

Don't worry as much about your speed as you are about your ability to continue performing under pressure and getting that first hit.

Patrick

[benos]

Interesting Pat,

I should get the full post up in a couple days. If not, by this weekend.

be

[benos]

At the Challenge, the draw is EXTREMELY important. With 8 stages, 5 draws apiece - one tenth of a second per draw is 4 seconds! That'll bump you down quite a few places, way more than you might think.

I'd say Pat's 1.2 second average is probably pretty close, considering All the stages, and all the shooters he timed. My first shot will vary, depending on the difficulty of the first shot (and the difficulty of the following shots), from maybe .85 - .90 on Smoke and Hope, to 1.25 - 1.30 on Outer Limits, with the majority of the other stages coming in around 1.0 - 1.1.

I have heard the comment that a few of the "too hard" stages will have the targets either "bigger," or moved closer. This is truly regrettable.

OK, the numbers I will give to the targets are how the targets are seen from the shooters box, when viewed from left to right. I will not give a number to the stop plate.

 Roundabout (I think that’s the right name, it changed over the years): For me: 1, 2, 3, 4.  –  for many others: 1, 2, 4, 3. to me, that order is a little "dangerous."

Speed Option:

For me: 4, 3, 1, 2. others: 4, 3, 2, 1.

5 to Go: everyone shoots this deceptive no-brainer 1, 2, 3, 4.

Outer Limits:

For me: start in the left box, 1, 2 – 3, 4. many others: 1, 2, - 4, 3.

Smoke and Hope:

I shot a crazy new order on this stage last time I was at the match, and liked it. 2, 1, 3, 4. most shoot either: 1, 2, 3, 4, or 1, 2, 4, 3.

Showdown:

This stage is shot as many ways as you can imagine. Every year, in practice I experiment with myriad orders, but usually end up shooting: Left to Right from both boxes. It’s simple. I don’t think "the order" matters on that stage – shoot whatever feels most comfortable and what you think/feel you have the best chance to duplicate in the match.

I know I’m forgetting at least one stage - if you know which one, post it and I’ll respond.

I also know there is a relatively new stage (I don’t know the name), a somewhat silly one, involving forward movement, which I’ve heard has changed or is changing – so I won’t comment on that one.

Good luck with your practice – it’s a great match to train for, even if you never go.

be

[ErikW]

As luck would have it, there's another steel match in Sacramento Sunday. Thanks.

[Scooter]

There's one in Sacto every 2nd Sunday of the month.  Too bad there isn't a list of shooting order for the older steel stages.

[ErikW]

Well, I forgot to take Brian's engagement order with me for reference, but I did OK. My own plans seem to work well except for Roundabout... I just can't shoot that stage well. (I was drawing to the close plate in the hope of speeding my draw.)

I realized my draw really hurts me in this game. (I was drawing near a second at Smoke and Hope, but more like 1.4 seconds on the stages where I had to draw to plates.) What's funny is that I shot a nice group on the draw target of S&H, smaller than a plate, so I should be able to draw and hit plates in about a second, too. It's weird, like I know how much sight picture to trade away shooting plates, but I can't bring myself to trade sight picture for speed on the draw targets. (In IPSC practice, my draw to a plate is much slower than my draw to a paper target's A zone.)

What's scary is I was a little slower this match compared to my first match as a total newbie.

Five To Go:        5.24, 3.69, 3.81, 3.74, 3.88 = 15.12

Smoke & Hope: 6.13, 3.46, 3.00, 3.01, 3.08 = 12.55

Showdown:      3.50, 3.50, 3.32, 4.40, 4.34 = 14.66

Zig Zag III:       3.51, 4.19, 3.07, 3.02, 2.75 = 12.35

Roundabout:    3.27, 3.47, 3.02, 4.25, 4.01 = 13.77

Compare to my first steel match in March:

Speed Option:  6.41, 3.13, 3.17, 2.93, 2.89 = 12.12

The Trap:          5.40, 4.81, 21.58, 4.44, 4.28 = 18.93

Showdown:      3.64, 3.49, 3.16, 4.62, 3.62 = 13.91

Roundabout:     3.45, 4.19, 3.54, 3.24, 3.73 = 13.96

Smoke & Hope: 3.33, 3.04, 2.85, 4.60, 3.22 = 12.44

This is good practice for IPSC. As fast as I shoot steel, it's obvious I'm being conservative to avoid make up shots in IPSC stages. In this steel challenge stuff you've got to go the absolute limit of your speed, right to the border of hit and miss.

[Scooter]

Concentration is also a big factor.  I had a pretty good run going on smoke & hope until I broke my concentration on the third string, then it was all downhill from there on that stage.  All the jams I had in the 22 class didn't help either.  I got either fustrated and missed more or got pissed off and shot faster.  

Brian, on Runabout, you refer to the order of 1243 as being "dangerous."  I was told to shoot that order and to stand in the front left corner of the shooting box.  Supposely that position reduces the separation between the plates and the swing from the third plate to the stop plate is fairly short.

[benos]

Erik,

The "danger," when shooting at warp-drive, is that it is REALLY EASY (I've done it, and seen it done many times in the match) to hit the stop plate after missing the 15 yd plate #3. When this happens on your first run, it becomes quite the tense situation.

be

[Detlef]

now that I can set this up myself, I *am* getting curiuos about *reasonable* times for each stage. Set up Outer LImits w/, and couldn't get it done in less than about 8 sec (7 when all shots were hits, but that happened only 50% of the time), and Roundabout (between 2.7 and 3.5, around 3.2 "to be safe keepers"). So what do the big boys come in at?

--Detlef

[ErikW]

They seemed to shoot everything except Outer Limits in high twos to mid threes. Eight isn't close on OL.

[Detlef]

ouch!

On OL, though: I meant OL w/ movement, and I also just noticed that they *greatly* reduced the distances from my (ancient) manual! I had 20/25/40y, and now it's 18/20/35. World of difference! Guess I'll have to print the stages out again, after only 10 y ....

--Detlef

(Edited by Detlef at 2:15 pm on Jan. 7, 2002)

[benos]

Detlef,

FWIW, The Great One said the reduced distances didn't affect the times as much as he/we thought it would.

I few average times I remember (for me, stock gun)- I'll list optimistic, and then reality:

Roundabout: 2.2 - 2.5

5 to go: 3.0 - 3.5

Speed Option: 3.4 - 4.0 ( I hate that one)

Smoke and Hope: 2.1 - 2.4

Showdown: 2.7 - 3.5

Outer limits (old version) can't remember for sure, maybe 4.8 - 5.6

What am I forgetting?

be

[ErikW]

You're forgetting Flying M or Flying M 2000 or whatever it is.

[Philip Dedmon]

Hey Brian if you are talking about stages, that would be the Flying M.

BTW: I like the forum.  We have not talked in person in years. Hell I bet you don't even,,,,,, yes I bet you do remember me.

[Philip Dedmon]

Looks like me and Erik were thinking and posting about the same time. Just took me longer to proof read mine.

[benos]

Phillip,

I don't have the face, but I definitely have the name - how long has it been?

And, I only shot the Flying M 2000 once - I hated it. Partly because I didn't shoot it well , and partly because the way they ran the stage (foot faults) was REALLY STUPID.

be

[Detlef]

another indication that there's *ways to go*....

--Detlef

[Philip Dedmon]

Brian: Probably was at the STC in FL. in the mid 90's.

[2alpha]

The trick starting position for the Flying M was, weak hand on your crossdraw holster, right hand extended out. Brian, I know you remember those old Hornady ads with Shaws smiling face.  Ahh the memories...

JJ

[benos]

Phillip,

Ah, now I remember! I'd mostly erased the STC from my memory bank.

2alpha,

Yea, I hated that starting position - because I shot strong side!

be

[Detlef]

alright, more questions to those who've been to *the match*: How often do the better shooters actually miss a plate and fire make-up shots? I'm thinking of IPSC (even the big dawgs screw up) vs. Bianchi (you screw up once, you're out), where does the Steel Challenge fit in? How many *bad* runs do the winners typically keep?

--Detlef

[ErikW]

It seemed that everybody on the Limited squad except Todd and Robbie was missing one or more shots in one to three runs (out of five) per stage. But they were fast misses.