Building A Position

[Matt in TN]

I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but I've read and searched and can't really find what I'm looking for. I have Brian's book and have read it several times now (great book!), but am having trouble understanding exactly how to build a proper neutral position.

I understand NPA and building a position with a rifle. What I don't understand is how to do that with a pistol. There is no bone support, and if I "relax" the pistol simply falls to the ground. I understand the various drills, but don't understand how exactly to fix my position when the drill doesn't give me the answer I want.

For example - I stand in a comfortable position and aim at the target with a two-handed grip (sort of halfway between a weaver and isosceles). I close my eyes, take a breath, and then open my eyes to see if the sights are still on the target. They are close, but they are about 2" low at 10yds. Sight alignment is still good, but my point of aim is low. "Change your grip" is the answer I've read - but how exactly?

With a rifle it would be "move your elbow inward", or "move your front foot backwards slightly" or something like that. What is the answer with a pistol?

[AlamoShooter]

its may be your head ..... many shooters dip their head into the gun during the draw. if your head is moving your always trying to catch the gun and the sights.

Learn to find a good position for you head -chin forward eyes 90deg to the ground. move your entire face forward of center like you just saw an ex girlfriend at a strip joint

When you close your eyes they should not look down at the ground through your eye lids, open your eyes she should be there

[Flexmoney]

Building A Position

... can't really find what I'm looking for.

I understand NPA and building a position with a rifle.

...doesn't give me the answer I want.

Your cup runneth over with what you know from rifle.

What is the answer with a pistol?

Empty your cup.

You aren't shooting a rifle, and you really aren't building a position with practical pistol. (Bullseye...perhaps)

The pistol needs to be pointed at the target. Do that. Then figure out how to get behind it. Hold the gun in a manner that allows you to work the trigger without moving the gun off target.

[Matt in TN]

Empty your cup.

The pistol needs to be pointed at the target. Do that. Then figure out how to get behind it. Hold the gun in a manner that allows you to work the trigger without moving the gun off target.

I'm trying to empty my cup! I can work the trigger without moving the gun off target. What I can't do is close my eyes, take a breath, and reopen my eyes and have the sights still on target. I have to move them back to the target.

I also can see where the sights are when they lift from the notch, but they do not return to the notch on their own - I have to move them there. I'm guessing before I can even approach this I need to fix the first part though. Baby steps...

Edited August 18, 2011 by Matt in TN

[Flexmoney]

If your "hold" is consistent (your NPA), then if that isn't pointed at the target...shift your feet until it is.

[38supPat]

Do only that which is necessary to hold the gun on target. Brian has clarified what he means by relaxing on the gun in other threads, obviously if you relax all your muscles the gun drops. But think of it as avoiding unneeded tension in any part of the body. A good position will feel as if you are not putting any effort to hold the gun on target, or rather you should not feel like you have to put any extra effort to hold it on target. A good neutral position feels like all the muscles are doing the same amount of work, no single muscle should feel like it's doing more than the others, when it's right it feels like you aren't doing anything at all.

[Matt in TN]

Thanks for the responses. I understand moving my feet if I'm off left to right, but how do I adjust when I'm off up or down?

[benos]

Thanks for the responses. I understand moving my feet if I'm off left to right, but how do I adjust when I'm off up or down?

For vertical consistency, you have to train yourself to remember the feeling - the total feeling - of your grip, arms and upper body, and your head, as one feeling.

Get in your shooting position and line your sights up on a spot on the wall across the room. Then close your eyes (you'll learn to remember many body positions more quickly if you remove your vision from your sensory inputs) and put all your attention in your hands and arms. Take a moment to remember what they feel like, and "where they are." Repeat a bunch of times. Then assume your shooting with your eyes closed, summoning the feeling you just worked on remembering.

Keep working with that every day and after some time your sights will be aligned whenever you raise your gun to eye level.

Here's an old thread with some great info on finding your NPA, from the Tips forum.

be

[jswitt99]

Thanks for the responses. I understand moving my feet if I'm off left to right, but how do I adjust when I'm off up or down?

For vertical consistency, you have to train yourself to remember the feeling - the total feeling - of your grip, arms and upper body, and your head, as one feeling.

Get in your shooting position and line your sights up on a spot on the wall across the room. Then close your eyes (you'll learn to remember many body positions more quickly if you remove your vision from your sensory inputs) and put all your attention in your hands and arms. Take a moment to remember what they feel like, and "where they are." Repeat a bunch of times. Then assume your shooting with your eyes closed, summoning the feeling you just worked on remembering.

Keep working with that every day and after some time your sights will be aligned whenever you raise your gun to eye level.

Here's an old thread with some great info on finding your NPA, from the Tips forum.

be

Brian,

In the earlier chapters in your book, you discount muscle memory as a term as I read. If someone asked me to define muscle memory, your statement above would be a great answer...

I remember you using the analogy of driving a car and not thinking about it. That led me to think of actions I do daily that I don't think about, but do very well. I tried thinking of the hardest thing that I do daily without thought that is the easiest for me...

I told a fellow shooter about this thought today. My best analogy was typing. Something all of us do daily at differnt levels. If I was to teach someone to type, what would I have to teach them? The response, was in order; english, typing and computers. These are 3 different skill sets that I have combined over "x" years to "master". I say master because I do it without thought, normally...

So is breaking down the draw, aim, shoot process much differnent (as one example) of being proficient in training?

My buddy said, "yes we all type well, but if someone took you to a typing test, how well would you do..." hmmm

Your car anaology made me think of things I do daily that I don't think about. When I practice I "think" about it, but "IF" I practice and don't think, I seem to do much better. Obviosuly, I got this from your book...

I set a par time of 1.5 seconds to draw and fire. (That is what I can do consistantly now, sub 1.5)

If someone asked me how to type fast, I could respond with "it's all muscle memory", but I understand that I wouldn't teach them anything. Is this one of your points in your book regarding muscle memory?

So, if my thought process is correct, when I reach that "point", I should shoot faster in a match than in practice?

Thanks.

Edited August 24, 2011 by jswitt99

[Matt Griffin]

Thanks for the responses. I understand moving my feet if I'm off left to right, but how do I adjust when I'm off up or down?

If you don't have your bones, what is left? The platform is just that, a stable structure on top of an unstable base. From the bottom of your ribcage to the top of your head you have a rigid structure made out of tense muscles that does its best not to change, unlike bones which can't change. Below that you have increasing areas of chaos working to stave off the disruption of the next lower level. The most chaotic are your feet, which are mitigated by your ankles and calves (smooth stopping and starting) mitigated by your quads (smooth but fast duck walking) mitigated by your abs (fighting the twisting action of the lower body to prevent changes in the platform) up to the platform, which moves accordingly. The faster you go, the longer the platform takes to regain control and present an acceptable shot. The more you have to disturb the platform with extreme angles or barriers the more care you have to take in order for the endpoints (hands) to present the correct sight picture.

The whole game is about making things easier. If you're moving slowly with your feet then you don't have to be clever with your hands, the big muscular platform has already handled it. The faster you go, the smarter everything has to get. Eventually you find the break point, dial it back, and start over.

Matt

[Flexmoney]

This is turning into a good thread. Thanks for posting.

Our Natural Point of Aim (NPA) isn't set in stone. We can adjust it through training. Thus, establishing a new NPA.

If your current NPA has the gun low, you will want to train to where the gun ends up dead on.

I like to press the gun out along my visual plane, from where I'd call the close-in high ready position (both hands established on gun, gun is pulled back, muzzle/front sight is about chin level...slightly muzzle up)

From this high ready (work space) position, I drive the front sight out to the target.

[benos]

Brian,

In the earlier chapters in your book, you discount muscle memory as a term as I read. If someone asked me to define muscle memory, your statement above would be a great answer...

I remember you using the analogy of driving a car and not thinking about it. That led me to think of actions I do daily that I don't think about, but do very well. I tried thinking of the hardest thing that I do daily without thought that is the easiest for me...

I told a fellow shooter about this thought today. My best analogy was typing. Something all of us do daily at differnt levels. If I was to teach someone to type, what would I have to teach them? The response, was in order; english, typing and computers. These are 3 different skill sets that I have combined over "x" years to "master". I say master because I do it without thought, normally...

So is breaking down the draw, aim, shoot process much differnent (as one example) of being proficient in training?

My buddy said, "yes we all type well, but if someone took you to a typing test, how well would you do..." hmmm

Your car anaology made me think of things I do daily that I don't think about. When I practice I "think" about it, but "IF" I practice and don't think, I seem to do much better. Obviosuly, I got this from your book...

I set a par time of 1.5 seconds to draw and fire. (That is what I can do consistantly now, sub 1.5)

If someone asked me how to type fast, I could respond with "it's all muscle memory", but I understand that I wouldn't teach them anything. Is this one of your points in your book regarding muscle memory?

So, if my thought process is correct, when I reach that "point", I should shoot faster in a match than in practice?

Thanks.

I seldom ever shot faster in a match than I was physically capable of shooting (my shooting speed in practice).

I don't like the term "muiscle memory" because it is jargon - it doesn't capture or describe what is actually occurring.

Once one has trained long enough to have mastered a specific set of movements, like drawing and shooting a target, or typing a sentence, what occurs in the body-mind that allows that skill set to manifest, by a simple command, like: I want to draw and shoot that target in the middle as quickly as possible.

?

I don't know. But I do know that once any skill set has been mastered, not thinking while doing it is the best way to get it done.

That is ususally best accomplished by placing our conscious, thinking mind on hold, by finding the best place to place all of our attention. Eventually, by finding that, you will have found the best way to do any repetitive task. (I'm Captain Best Way.)

From careful study and experience, I've learned that if there is thought movement while your are doing anything, you won't be doing it as good as you can.

Of course when you are beginning to learn any particular skill, there must be some thinking involved. You must first hear the key points involved in firing an accurate shot, for example, and then in the beginning you must think your way through them.

But in the end the goal is to find the best place to put your attention, to allow your body-mind can do what you have trained it to, as efficiently as possible.

be

[jswitt99]

Thanks everyone, this thread has really helped me. I have been trying to stop dipping my head and think this will help as before I just couldn't stop doing it. Did the eyes closed drill briefly and think with a little time I may correct some other things I didn't even realize I was doing wrong.

Btw Brian, I think I am "Captian Over think It"

[Sin-ster]

Btw Brian, I think I am "Captian Over think It"

If you're the Captain, I must be a 5 Star General.

I've discovered over the course of a few weeks that the position I had built originally was contributing to a lot of problems. Without going into dramatic detail, there was a lot of extra tension created, and a lot of discomfort that led to fighting the gun.

First and foremost, body styles are different and trying to adapt everyone to a single specific stance is not ideal. It may work for most folks, as there is certainly an "average". But to use an extreme example, a 5' 8" man at 200 pounds has a drastically different center of balance than a 6' 2" woman at 150 with a porn star bust.

I also believe that any past sport/physical experience plays a contributing role. Not only can it require intense repetition to break/modify, but it might very well give you an excellent platform to build on-- putting you ahead of the curve. In my case, it was baseball-- and both my batting and infield ready stance were notably different from the prescribed shooting stance. I got hung up on the base, and a "tip" someone gave me about the amount of flex in my knees. Using the timer, I came to find out that not only was that baseball stance (slightly modified) FAR more comfortable and less tense, but it also improved my speed all around-- from shooting, to transitions, to movement.

This thread has allowed me to liken "building a position around a target" to fielding a ground ball. In essence, it's all a matter of geometry and intersecting lines. Just like you can't always shoot a target from a perfect position, you can't always scoop the ball from your ideal base either-- although for baseball, you try a lot harder to do it. As you're not folded over to the ground in shooting, however-- it's less of an issue and pretty intuitive. At that point in time, it becomes more like making a quick throw from an awkward position, or hitting an inside/outside pitch (which requires movement of the hips/shoulders combo, but not the feet).

[benos]

I've discovered over the course of a few weeks that the position I had built originally was contributing to a lot of problems.

Instead of building a position, allow the position to build itself.

be

[Sin-ster]

I've discovered over the course of a few weeks that the position I had built originally was contributing to a lot of problems.

Instead of building a position, allow the position to build itself.

be

Leave it to Brian to sum up my entire post in a one liner.

That's pretty much what happened. "This crap isn't comfortable and it isn't helping. What feels the best, if the target and floating gun are the origin? Oh, yeah-- that works."

The plus side is that despite SO many reps of forcing the "planned" position, it's still very natural to fall into the better one. I honestly think I'd been doing it in matches all along-- especially when moving into a new position at speed.

I really need to start having someone tape me at the match, instead of just doing it myself at practice.