Sweeping your fingers

[kz45]

How would you call this, at LAMR, shooter loads and holsters his hot pistol, then goes to adjust his belt, reaching under his mag pouches on one side, and wrapping his fingers around the bottom of his holster pulling up and straightening his belt 10.5.5 ?

[Schutzenmeister]

How would you call this, at LAMR, shooter loads and holsters his hot pistol, then goes to adjust his belt, reaching under his mag pouches on one side, and wrapping his fingers around the bottom of his holster pulling up and straightening his belt 10.5.5 ?

This has been previously addressed by DNROI. Although loaded, a holstered HG is considered inert and 10.5.5 would not apply. You may wish to point out to the shooter what he just did, but it is not a DQ'able offense.

Sweeping

Created: 8/05/10

Updated: 8/17/10

Effective: 8/17/10

Rule Number: 10.5.5.1

Applies to: Pistol

Ruling Authority: Director NROI

Status: Released

Question: If someone adjust their holster after make ready command and puts their hand under the bottom of the holster where the hand is exposed to the muzzle considered sweeping?

Answer: No, 10.5.5 reads Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping). The definition in the appendix of sweeping is, Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person’s body. This rule has never been about a holstered gun with the trigger unexposed, to be considered part of sweeping. Though the rule and definition do not explain this as clearly as should be, 10.5.5.1 will read "Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7".

[kz45]

Thank you sir

[Schutzenmeister]

No problem ...

[Skydiver]

A little bit of thread drift, but related: And if the holster breaks off while the shooter is pulling up?

I know that we've had discussions in the past about the holster falling off and come to the conclusion that it's a DQ for dropped gun (irregardless if the gun was in the holster or not) because of the loss of control. But if it breaks off and the shooter is left holding on to the gun in holster and the muzzle pointed at the fingers or palm of their strong hand is it a DQ?

One part of me thinks this is a DQ along the lines of taking belt and holster off as covered by the NROI ruling around 5.2.1, BUT in this case the shooter is under the supervision of an RO and he was complying with the "Make Ready" command. So I don't think the 5.2.1 DQ applies.

Since the trigger is not accessible (because it was the entire holster that broke off), I don't think this qualifies as a 10.5.1 "gun handling" DQ.

Additionally, since the gun is still in the holster, it is considered inert, right?

Sharp eyed readers will note though that 10.5.5.1 (and the NROI ruling quoted above) ends with "Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7". Since the holster isn't attached to the belt anymore, then it's not in compliance with 5.2.1, and there is a possibility that the muzzle is now pointed beyond 3 feet of the competitors feet (5.2.7.3).

If I were the RO, I would have the shooter unload and show clear, hammer down, and have somebody bring up a gun rug or bag for the shooter and treat this as if the shooter were not ready. After the peanut gallery is done laughing or razzing the the shooter, I'll call up the next shooter. As much as 5.7.1 seems to be perfect because this is before the start signal, 5.7.1 only covers handgun malfunctions and not allied equipment. 5.2.5.2 seems more appropriate since his holster is now not in compliance with division requirements.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Skydiver

[Dan Hefta]

Might I add that most of us sweep our leg every time we holster, it's part of the process.

[aztecdriver]

Might I add that most of us sweep our leg every time we holster, it's part of the process.

Specifically dealt with in 10.5.5.1

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7

[West Texas Granny]

A little bit of thread drift, but related: And if the holster breaks off while the shooter is pulling up?

I know that we've had discussions in the past about the holster falling off and come to the conclusion that it's a DQ for dropped gun (irregardless if the gun was in the holster or not) because of the loss of control. But if it breaks off and the shooter is left holding on to the gun in holster and the muzzle pointed at the fingers or palm of their strong hand is it a DQ?

One part of me thinks this is a DQ along the lines of taking belt and holster off as covered by the NROI ruling around 5.2.1, BUT in this case the shooter is under the supervision of an RO and he was complying with the "Make Ready" command. So I don't think the 5.2.1 DQ applies.

Since the trigger is not accessible (because it was the entire holster that broke off), I don't think this qualifies as a 10.5.1 "gun handling" DQ.

Additionally, since the gun is still in the holster, it is considered inert, right?

Sharp eyed readers will note though that 10.5.5.1 (and the NROI ruling quoted above) ends with "Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7". Since the holster isn't attached to the belt anymore, then it's not in compliance with 5.2.1, and there is a possibility that the muzzle is now pointed beyond 3 feet of the competitors feet (5.2.7.3).

If I were the RO, I would have the shooter unload and show clear, hammer down, and have somebody bring up a gun rug or bag for the shooter and treat this as if the shooter were not ready. After the peanut gallery is done laughing or razzing the the shooter, I'll call up the next shooter. As much as 5.7.1 seems to be perfect because this is before the start signal, 5.7.1 only covers handgun malfunctions and not allied equipment. 5.2.5.2 seems more appropriate since his holster is now not in compliance with division requirements.

I thought it was the RO's responsibility to make a dropped gun safe. In other words the shooter doesn't handle the firearm till the RO does their job. Another question is if you check PF then why not equipment to ensure it's also functional..

[remoandiris]

Another question is if you check PF then why not equipment to ensure it's also functional..

You can check equipment all day long. Doesn't mean something won't break when you least expect it.

Grip looks good, then you put a mag in and it cracks. Shoes are fine when you put them on. Stage 5 the sole starts flopping and you run like Bozo the Clown. Mags work great on stages 1 - 3, then you get a nosedive while reloading on stage 4. The tires on your car are in great shape...until you run over the nail you didn't see.

Stuff happens.

Edited August 9, 2011 by remoandiris

[Skydiver]

A little bit of thread drift, but related: And if the holster breaks off while the shooter is pulling up?

I know that we've had discussions in the past about the holster falling off and come to the conclusion that it's a DQ for dropped gun (irregardless if the gun was in the holster or not) because of the loss of control. But if it breaks off and the shooter is left holding on to the gun in holster and the muzzle pointed at the fingers or palm of their strong hand is it a DQ?

One part of me thinks this is a DQ along the lines of taking belt and holster off as covered by the NROI ruling around 5.2.1, BUT in this case the shooter is under the supervision of an RO and he was complying with the "Make Ready" command. So I don't think the 5.2.1 DQ applies.

Since the trigger is not accessible (because it was the entire holster that broke off), I don't think this qualifies as a 10.5.1 "gun handling" DQ.

Additionally, since the gun is still in the holster, it is considered inert, right?

Sharp eyed readers will note though that 10.5.5.1 (and the NROI ruling quoted above) ends with "Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7". Since the holster isn't attached to the belt anymore, then it's not in compliance with 5.2.1, and there is a possibility that the muzzle is now pointed beyond 3 feet of the competitors feet (5.2.7.3).

If I were the RO, I would have the shooter unload and show clear, hammer down, and have somebody bring up a gun rug or bag for the shooter and treat this as if the shooter were not ready. After the peanut gallery is done laughing or razzing the the shooter, I'll call up the next shooter. As much as 5.7.1 seems to be perfect because this is before the start signal, 5.7.1 only covers handgun malfunctions and not allied equipment. 5.2.5.2 seems more appropriate since his holster is now not in compliance with division requirements.

I thought it was the RO's responsibility to make a dropped gun safe. In other words the shooter doesn't handle the firearm till the RO does their job. Another question is if you check PF then why not equipment to ensure it's also functional..

Yes, it's the RO's responsibility to make a dropped gun safe, but in this case, in my opinion the gun was never dropped. It doesn't satisfy the rulebook definition of a dropped gun. Control was never lost. The gun and holster were in the shooters hand the whole time.

[sperman]

A little bit of thread drift, but related: And if the holster breaks off while the shooter is pulling up?

I know that we've had discussions in the past about the holster falling off and come to the conclusion that it's a DQ for dropped gun (irregardless if the gun was in the holster or not) because of the loss of control. But if it breaks off and the shooter is left holding on to the gun in holster and the muzzle pointed at the fingers or palm of their strong hand is it a DQ?

One part of me thinks this is a DQ along the lines of taking belt and holster off as covered by the NROI ruling around 5.2.1, BUT in this case the shooter is under the supervision of an RO and he was complying with the "Make Ready" command. So I don't think the 5.2.1 DQ applies.

Since the trigger is not accessible (because it was the entire holster that broke off), I don't think this qualifies as a 10.5.1 "gun handling" DQ.

Additionally, since the gun is still in the holster, it is considered inert, right?

Sharp eyed readers will note though that 10.5.5.1 (and the NROI ruling quoted above) ends with "Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7". Since the holster isn't attached to the belt anymore, then it's not in compliance with 5.2.1, and there is a possibility that the muzzle is now pointed beyond 3 feet of the competitors feet (5.2.7.3).

If I were the RO, I would have the shooter unload and show clear, hammer down, and have somebody bring up a gun rug or bag for the shooter and treat this as if the shooter were not ready. After the peanut gallery is done laughing or razzing the the shooter, I'll call up the next shooter. As much as 5.7.1 seems to be perfect because this is before the start signal, 5.7.1 only covers handgun malfunctions and not allied equipment. 5.2.5.2 seems more appropriate since his holster is now not in compliance with division requirements.

I would DQ and cite this ruling from 2008: http://www.uspsa.org...ils.php?indx=39

Question: After I have been unloaded and shown clear on the line by an RO, can I go back to my bag and remove my holster and/or blet with the holster attached while the handgun is still in the holster

Answer: A competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes his/her holster or his/her equipment belt with his/her handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match. Safety areas are provided for doing this while not under the supervision of a RO.

Edited August 10, 2011 by sperman

[wgnoyes]

(How did this one go from curling fingers underneath a holstered gun to something which I've NEVER seen, which is a holster and gun breaking off the belt?)

(And your link doesn't work.)

Edited August 10, 2011 by wgnoyes

[Skydiver]

Yeah, as I admittedly said, it's thread drift to talk about the holster breaking off at that exact moment. But the OP had said that the shooter had grabbed mag pouches and holster and pulled up.

The NROI Ruling that I was referring to and Scott was trying to link to was this one:

Created: 12/02/08

Updated: 12/09/08

Effective: 12/09/08

Rule Number: 5.2.1

Applies to: Pistol

Ruling Authority: John Amidon

Status: Released

Question:

After I have been unloaded and shown clear on the line by an RO, can I go back to my bag and remove my holster and/or blet with the holster attached while the handgun is still in the holster

Answer:

A competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes his/her holster or his/her equipment belt with his/her handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match. Safety areas are provided for doing this while not under the supervision of a RO.

[sorry about the formatting. I've been battling with the forum full text editor, but just losing.]

But as I first noted in post #5, the ruling refers to rule 5.2.1, and if you look closely at 5.2.1 as well as the ruling above, one of the conditions is not met. The shooter is under the supervision of an RO at the time the holster breaks off.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Skydiver

[sperman]

I was in a bit of a hurry today when I posted that (and also struggling with the same formatting problems.

Let me try and clarify a little bit.

I would DQ the shooter for a dropped gun. (10.5.3) If you want to make the argument that a holstered handgun is inert, I'll refer to the previously mentioned ruling. Once the holster leaves your possession, it's a different story.

I've just gone back and re-read SkyDiver's post. I thought the gun and holster fell off, but in his scenario the gun never left the shooter's hand.

Nevermind.

[EkuJustice]

Not unauthorized gun handeling once the Make ready has been given

[racerba]

The NROI ruling deals with situations outside the RO's supervision. The situation described is during the RO's supervision and control. It is not a DQ per OP's question. I would not DQ the competitor for a broken holster either. They are allowed to handle the gun as they are under my MR command and control. It also does not qualified as a sweep as it is still in the holster. Had the holster broke while I am not on the line, I would just drop the gun and holster to the ground and call for an RO to retrieve a dropped gun. Again, as long as the gun is not loaded, it is not DQable.

Edited August 12, 2011 by racerba