Minor & Major

[40S&W]

Singlestack:

I have no desire to make major power factor in 9mm, only use it for steel. I have my 38SC for major PF USPSA. Shoot L10 with my 1911 custom 40S&W Colt and SS with my 1911 Springfield. I shoot steel, USPSA, & sometimes IDPA. I shoot for the fun of it and the comradery and don't really give a damn where my classifications are. At 66 years of age I'm glad I can still shoot and hope I can still shoot & continue reloading into my 70s'.

[Blueridge]

Why doesn't USPSA eliminate major and just go to one minor load 125+ PF. Eliminate the gaming & the sky is the limit for the best guns & equipment and start putting an emphasis on accuracy & less on speed and gaming the system. No extra points regardless of your power factor. You want to shoot a higher power factor that's your choice and you should not get any extra consideration. Also they should look at requiring that a club run at least one full classifier match per year.

I think this would bring more shooters to this sport. IMHO I think that the way things are presently going there will be a decline in membership and clubs offering USPSA/IPSC matches.

What do you THINK!

I have read through the thread to this point, and still cannot figure out what exactly is the problem with major PF in your view.

(Playing devil's advocate here)

You want to focus on accuracy, then add in a penalty for shots beyond the number required by the stage. This would be different than Virginia Count as shooter could take as many shots as they wanted, but the "extra" shots would incurr a penalty less than a procedural. That way competitors have to make each shot count. The timers already keep up with the number of shots that the shooter takes (sans some level of possible error that would have to be dealt with), but it would not be that hard to do. capacity would not have to be changed from the way it is now, but the competitors would have to decide if making up that "C" to get an "A" hit is worth taking an "exceeding required shots" penalty. I won't even go into what the penalty would be, as I am only suggesting this as an alternative to something that I do not feel needs to be changed.

I shoot in revolver division by the way, and I use the revolver that is my avatar currently. I have witnessed shooters in the other divisions take 3 sometimes 4 (very fast) shots on each of 3-5 targets on a stage in an effort to get two "A" hits. I knew from watching them through the entire match (they were in my squad) that they could have made two "A" hits without the need for more than two shots. Firing 3-4 shots at a faster pace was what they preferred instead of simply two shots at a slower pace. Mind you I was not competing against them, as they were not in my division, but I thought that they were shooting more than was necessary given their apparent level of skill. I have seen this occur at pretty much all of the matches (aside from the Memphis Charity Challenge) I have participated in.

I think that an "excess shot" penalty would change how many shooters think and plan when they engage a stage. Just thinking about the idea causes me to imagine the call against the idea. Texas Stars, Polish Plate Racks, and swingers would be the bane of competitors given the number of shots that are currently taken at them but the general competitor contingent.

Once again I say that I don't think that this idea should be done, but it has a better chance of causing more focus on accuracy that getting rid of major PF would ever do.

[OpenDot]

No..

[Singlestack]

Singlestack:

I have no desire to make major power factor in 9mm, only use it for steel. I have my 38SC for major PF USPSA. Shoot L10 with my 1911 custom 40S&W Colt and SS with my 1911 Springfield. I shoot steel, USPSA, & sometimes IDPA. I shoot for the fun of it and the comradery and don't really give a damn where my classifications are. At 66 years of age I'm glad I can still shoot and hope I can still shoot & continue reloading into my 70s'.

Thats very cool and I hope you continue for longer than that.

But why then would you want to do away with one part of the triangle that makes this sport what it is? We might as well all shoot a .22.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Why doesn't USPSA eliminate major and just go to one minor load 125+ PF. Eliminate the gaming & the sky is the limit for the best guns & equipment and start putting an emphasis on accuracy & less on speed and gaming the system. No extra points regardless of your power factor. You want to shoot a higher power factor that's your choice and you should not get any extra consideration. Also they should look at requiring that a club run at least one full classifier match per year.

I think this would bring more shooters to this sport. IMHO I think that the way things are presently going there will be a decline in membership and clubs offering USPSA/IPSC matches.

What do you THINK!

I have read through the thread to this point, and still cannot figure out what exactly is the problem with major PF in your view.

(Playing devil's advocate here)

You want to focus on accuracy, then add in a penalty for shots beyond the number required by the stage. This would be different than Virginia Count as shooter could take as many shots as they wanted, but the "extra" shots would incurr a penalty less than a procedural. That way competitors have to make each shot count. The timers already keep up with the number of shots that the shooter takes (sans some level of possible error that would have to be dealt with), but it would not be that hard to do. capacity would not have to be changed from the way it is now, but the competitors would have to decide if making up that "C" to get an "A" hit is worth taking an "exceeding required shots" penalty. I won't even go into what the penalty would be, as I am only suggesting this as an alternative to something that I do not feel needs to be changed.

I shoot in revolver division by the way, and I use the revolver that is my avatar currently. I have witnessed shooters in the other divisions take 3 sometimes 4 (very fast) shots on each of 3-5 targets on a stage in an effort to get two "A" hits. I knew from watching them through the entire match (they were in my squad) that they could have made two "A" hits without the need for more than two shots. Firing 3-4 shots at a faster pace was what they preferred instead of simply two shots at a slower pace. Mind you I was not competing against them, as they were not in my division, but I thought that they were shooting more than was necessary given their apparent level of skill. I have seen this occur at pretty much all of the matches (aside from the Memphis Charity Challenge) I have participated in.

I think that an "excess shot" penalty would change how many shooters think and plan when they engage a stage. Just thinking about the idea causes me to imagine the call against the idea. Texas Stars, Polish Plate Racks, and swingers would be the bane of competitors given the number of shots that are currently taken at them but the general competitor contingent.

Once again I say that I don't think that this idea should be done, but it has a better chance of causing more focus on accuracy that getting rid of major PF would ever do.

Why not just put in a Failure To Do Right penalty?

The last thing we need are any more penalties.

Wanting to win puts a focus on accuracy...

Edited July 24, 2011 by GeorgeInNePa

[Blueridge]

Why doesn't USPSA eliminate major and just go to one minor load 125+ PF. Eliminate the gaming & the sky is the limit for the best guns & equipment and start putting an emphasis on accuracy & less on speed and gaming the system. No extra points regardless of your power factor. You want to shoot a higher power factor that's your choice and you should not get any extra consideration. Also they should look at requiring that a club run at least one full classifier match per year.

I think this would bring more shooters to this sport. IMHO I think that the way things are presently going there will be a decline in membership and clubs offering USPSA/IPSC matches.

What do you THINK!

I have read through the thread to this point, and still cannot figure out what exactly is the problem with major PF in your view.

(Playing devil's advocate here)

You want to focus on accuracy, then add in a penalty for shots beyond the number required by the stage. This would be different than Virginia Count as shooter could take as many shots as they wanted, but the "extra" shots would incurr a penalty less than a procedural. That way competitors have to make each shot count. The timers already keep up with the number of shots that the shooter takes (sans some level of possible error that would have to be dealt with), but it would not be that hard to do. capacity would not have to be changed from the way it is now, but the competitors would have to decide if making up that "C" to get an "A" hit is worth taking an "exceeding required shots" penalty. I won't even go into what the penalty would be, as I am only suggesting this as an alternative to something that I do not feel needs to be changed.

I shoot in revolver division by the way, and I use the revolver that is my avatar currently. I have witnessed shooters in the other divisions take 3 sometimes 4 (very fast) shots on each of 3-5 targets on a stage in an effort to get two "A" hits. I knew from watching them through the entire match (they were in my squad) that they could have made two "A" hits without the need for more than two shots. Firing 3-4 shots at a faster pace was what they preferred instead of simply two shots at a slower pace. Mind you I was not competing against them, as they were not in my division, but I thought that they were shooting more than was necessary given their apparent level of skill. I have seen this occur at pretty much all of the matches (aside from the Memphis Charity Challenge) I have participated in.

I think that an "excess shot" penalty would change how many shooters think and plan when they engage a stage. Just thinking about the idea causes me to imagine the call against the idea. Texas Stars, Polish Plate Racks, and swingers would be the bane of competitors given the number of shots that are currently taken at them but the general competitor contingent.

Once again I say that I don't think that this idea should be done, but it has a better chance of causing more focus on accuracy that getting rid of major PF would ever do.

Why not just put in a Failure To Do Right penalty?

The last thing we need are any more penalties.

Wanting to win puts a focus on accuracy...

HEY, I am right there with you. As I said in my post, I don't see the need to add what I suggested or do what the original poster suggested.

[GForceLizard]

Very odd. If you don't like differing PF scoring then shoot production.

[OpenDot]

Very odd. If you don't like differing PF scoring then shoot production.

Or any other Division in Minor..

[twodownzero]

It seems to me that the OP should volunteer to design some stages at a club. The change he desires can come from stage design rather than rule changes.

[Graham Smith]

Why doesn't USPSA eliminate major and just go to one minor load 125+ PF.

I'll give you one good reason - a competitor needs to be able to shoot on a relatively equal footing without having to reload or buy custom loaded ammo. Someone can shoot Limited or Ltd10 with store bought ammunition. But if they are competing against someone who is shooting underpowered .40 minor, then they are at an automatic disadvantage.

[The Antichrome]

Why doesnt the sport of basketball lower the goal from 10' to say 7.5'? That way, players wouldnt have to be tall and athletic to dunk. Participation would grow among the short and obese.

The Marathon is waaay to long. 26 miles? thats just unreasonable.

Baseball should have 4 strikes, and beer should be free.

The rules are what they are. While they have evolved, they also have firm roots. Minor/Major distinctions are an important part of 'practical shooting'.

If I was only interested in accuracy, I'd just shoot benchrest, or PPC, or Bianchi, but they'd have to make the X-rings larger for me.

[theycallmeingot]

start shooting alphas and PF doesn't matter. i shoot a 45 in production. so cry me a friggin river.

[mikeg1005]

Why doesn't USPSA eliminate major and just go to one minor load 125+ PF. Eliminate the gaming & the sky is the limit for the best guns & equipment and start putting an emphasis on accuracy & less on speed and gaming the system. No extra points regardless of your power factor. You want to shoot a higher power factor that's your choice and you should not get any extra consideration. Also they should look at requiring that a club run at least one full classifier match per year.

I think this would bring more shooters to this sport. IMHO I think that the way things are presently going there will be a decline in membership and clubs offering USPSA/IPSC matches.

What do you THINK!

I think you are wrong.

I think what brings people into USPSA is the fact that the sport is "here is the targets, here is where you start... this is when you end... figure the rest out"

The only way to "get rid of gaming" is to tell people exactly how to shoot he course of fire and that is boring.

Your comment about "equipment and guns" ... thats why there are divisions... so a revolver doesn't compete with an open gun...and when you look at the requirements for each divison... you aren't at any advantage with gear comapred to the next guy.

Your point about getting rid of major PF is also flawed.

If you got rid of major... then people would start tryign to push the limits on minor... and it would get away from the real roots of this game.. It is "PRACTICAL" shooting.. so there is an aspect of reality involved.. and the reality is, that the bigger calibers should be required to shoot harder than a lighter 9mm, you wouldn't be carrying minor 45acp loads for SD... hense why they don't allow it in single stack.

You don't "game" the chrono... if anything you gamble with it... those that risk pushing the limits and getting as close to 125 of 165 PF run the risk of not making it at all and screwing their entire match up.

About your "required to host an all classifier match..." No I don't think they SHOULD HAVE TO.... I like it when they do... but I don't see why USPSA should "require" anyone to run something like this... Doing so would be taking advantage of a club.... USPSA charges for the # of classifers you submit... if the REQUIRE you to shoot an all classifer match and then charge you MORE for submitting more classifiers.. thats not right to the club.

The best gift this game has is its complete freedom to do as you choose... pick your course of fire, shoot it how you want to... pick whether you want to focus on accuracy or speed... and require YOU to figure out which is more important for a given stage... stop trying to enforce more rules in order to make it "easier" ... just get better and get more competitive.

.... And as a last note... the only people I heard that complain about "gaming" are those that can't figure how to do it... start paying attention to the course of fire, explore all your options, utilize your walk through time, watch better shooters, ask questions, increase your efficency while shooting the stage, see where you can take shots that might give you an advantage of not requiring an extra reload, etc. etc. etc.

USPSA does focus on accuracy... if it didn't then why would the best shooters strive to get at least 95% of their points.

MIke.

Edited August 1, 2011 by mikeg1005

[remoandiris]

We might as well all shoot a .22.

Or airsoft. Cheaper than reloading! And target distances will be less.

[Flexmoney]

All,

Lets make sure to be polite when putting your opinion out there for discussion. Try not to post AT someone.

We can disagree here and still have a nice discussion about it.

And, we do want to have nice discussions.

Thanks!

Kyle Farris

Forum Administrator

[GeorgeInNePa]

Why doesnt the sport of basketball lower the goal from 10' to say 7.5'? That way, players wouldnt have to be tall and athletic to dunk. Participation would grow among the short and obese.

The Marathon is waaay to long. 26 miles? thats just unreasonable.

Baseball should have 4 strikes, and beer should be free.

The rules are what they are. While they have evolved, they also have firm roots. Minor/Major distinctions are an important part of 'practical shooting'.

If I was only interested in accuracy, I'd just shoot benchrest, or PPC, or Bianchi, but they'd have to make the X-rings larger for me.

Finally!

An idea I can get behind.

Edited August 4, 2011 by GeorgeInNePa

[Flexmoney]

Baseball should have 4 strikes, and beer should be free.

Finally!

An idea I can get behind.

Just for Junior's.

[Standby!]

Singlestack:

I have no desire to make major power factor in 9mm, only use it for steel. I have my 38SC for major PF USPSA. Shoot L10 with my 1911 custom 40S&W Colt and SS with my 1911 Springfield. I shoot steel, USPSA, & sometimes IDPA. I shoot for the fun of it and the comradery and don't really give a damn where my classifications are. At 66 years of age I'm glad I can still shoot and hope I can still shoot & continue reloading into my 70s'.

You already have (the majority anyway) the single action trigger..what else do you want?

Keep on shooting

[t0066jh]

Just a reminder that when you compete in a match, you are competiting within your division, within your class.

A Production shooter can have a personal goal to shoot better than an Open shooter. Just remember, the Open shooter is playing a different game than you. He's not gaming anyone with his 170 mag.

Check out BJ Norris' web page and blog about why he shoots minor in Single Stack. Shoot alphas faster and it doesn't matter. By the way, it's easier to shoot Alphas faster for many people shooting minor because recoil is less. Just start practicing for better accuracy. Speed will come.

Just MHO

Edited August 12, 2011 by t0066jh