Can you slow build a Shadow level gun?

[grimaldi]

I'm looking at getting into USPSA production shooting a little more seriously and I've always been a fan of the CZ line. My wife, of course, would kill me if I went all out and purchased a Shadow from the get go, but other threads in this forum have made it sound like it's tough to buy a current 75 and slowly upgrade it to "Shadow" level. Some of this, as I understand, seems to be because the newer versions have a firing pin block which somehow affects the trigger pull and might make the gun "illegal" per USPSA production rules if it were removed.

Older CZ 75s were made without the firing pin block, however, so would they be easier to upgrade? I've seen some older 75s that are pretty inexpensive, although I'm not sure if there are other concerns with those older pistols. For example, there are several used 75s from Czech police stations available for around $350. Some are listed as straight up 75s, while others are listed as SP01 types (I'd link but can't due to low post count!), so I'm not sure if there's a big difference in upgradability or performance between the two. These older guns are all DA/SA with a safety, but the idea of releasing the hammer manually is a bit disconcerting.

So, any thoughts would be appreciated.

[burningsquirrels]

i wouldn't fret too much about whether you start with a shadow or a regular sp-01. i went C to M in a year on an old sp-01 that just had grips, sights, and springs. having a nice trigger is cool, but there's a lot more to shooting than just a nice trigger.

don't get one of the old ones. find a used SP-01 for 400 bucks - i've seen them around. re spring it, check the threads on CZ forum on quick reliability work (takes little effort), and just get shooting with one. worry about the rest later. much more important to get shooting and trigger time than worry about the small stuff.

[eerw]

+1.

find a SP01 or a 75B, safety or decocker..whichever your preference.

if you do some searching you can find pretty good deals.

get some trigger work, sights and go race it a bit.

[Torogi]

Im with burnin' and eerw, I started with a used SP-01, I just got itchy and went to get the shadow upgrade. All in all, like burnin' said, there's more into shooting than just a nice trigger (its the only difference). Once you get one, shoot it alot. Dropping the hammer initially is scary but we all went through that.

You will get used to it.

Check classifieds often (okay, alot).. CZ's tend to get sold quick!

[burningsquirrels]

grimaldi where are you from? maybe if someone local has a CZ they can help you get started.

[grimaldi]

I'm in central Iowa (Des Moines), and there's not a lot of CZs around. I really only started competitive shooting about a year ago through the military and did really well in rifle events, but I have quite a bit of ground to make up in pistol events. Trigger control was the thing to focus on most, I found, so I got a Sig 250 for quite a deal. Long, heavy but smooth trigger pull has given me some good practice, but it (and the long trigger reset) aren't the best for USPSA-type action shooting.

I considered just getting a Beretta 92, but I don't really like the feel of it compared to most of the CZs I've handled.

[burningsquirrels]

the gun doesn't matter all that much so long as it has a strong aftermarket support. glock, m&p, cz, sig, all good guns. find the one with the best ergonomics for you. they can all be had with nice (subjectively) triggers. if the CZ balances well for you, great! trophies are won with them all year round. also, don't forget to check out the CZ forum. you might find some local help there too.

[ck1]

You can "slow-build" (or if you wish "fast-build") a gun to Shadow-spec fairly easily and inexpensively... problem is Shadows are born without firing pin blocks and they are their own series of pistol unique amongst their CZ brothers, so even if nobody cares at local club-level matches, a non-Shadow brought up to Shadow-spec won't be legal at bigger sanctioned matches where they'll check to make sure tge FPB is intact and if not you'll get DQ'd and end up shooting for fun only and no score.

It's actually so easy and cheap to turn a "regular" CZ into a "Shadow-spec" CZ that having to pay the $$$ premium just for the gun to be considered "legal" kind of seems idiotic, but rules are rules, and it falls under "disabling a safety device", IIRC the same ruling makes it illegal to convert a 80-series 1911 to a 70-series 1911 in SSTK, if it was born with a FPB it's gotta stay put and do it's thing, or else you're illegal and cheating as far as the governing bodies are concerned.

What mostly makes the Shadows great and all that really enables them to have such nicer triggers than most proleterion CZ's is two things: their hammers, and no-FPB. Their hammers have different geometry than "regular" CZ's which leads to a light pull and the absence of creep. Standard Shadows have a hammer based on the older CZ Champion-series race guns, while Shadow Customs have a CZCustom's Competition hammer... good news is the CZC competition hammer will drop right into pretty much any DA/SA w/ safety CZ (75B, 85's, SP-01) and can be done DIY-style if you're halfway skilled, that get's one almost all the way up to where the Shadow's trigger is. The Shadows, without FPB's have a slightly cleaner pull (no FPB means 2 less springs to deal with) and do have a reset that's half as short as a FPB-equipped CZ (nearly as short as a 1911), but, that's really it, and keeping perspective the trigger-reset on a FPB-equipped CZ is pretty short as pistols go, on par with a Glock, no where near as long as a Sig's or an H&K's, so for many guys it's really not as big of a deal as it may be sometimes made to seem.

The guys above who said that any of 'em will do and that it's really getting out and shooting that matters are exactly right... but if you are after an affordable path to near-Shadow trigger-awesomeness a $5 13lb hammer-spring, a CZC comp hammer, and a little tinkering will get you pretty darn close for low duckets, and with the FPB still intact you'll be legal.

Maybe later if you want to find out what a no-FPB Shadow is like, get a $3 spacer from CZC (needed to replace the FPB-lifter) and pull your FPB... If you dig it, and just must have it that way ever after, only you can decide if you need to figure out how to score the extra $300-400 to pony up for the Shadow (that's what I did, had to:)).

Edited June 30, 2011 by ck1

[grimaldi]

CK1 has kind of hit the major themes that I understand and am trying to synchronize. Obviously practice is the key to improving skills (and scores), but at some point your equipment can start holding back your performance. Why buy a "starter" pistol and then later buy a separate "competition" level pistol if you can slowly upgrade the original to the latter? It isn't a huge deal, but I've found you can save yourself some money and heartache by planning ahead instead of just diving in, and I'm trying to see if this is one of those situations.

That's where the older model 75s I've been seeing came to mind. They were "born" without FPB, so should (I think) be legal for USPSA production purposes, and could theoretically be easier to upgrade to something like a custom shadow over time. It seems silly, as eventually pretty much every piece of the gun would be replaced aside from the frame, but that how a lot of things work over time. I could be way off, of course, but that's why I came here for more informed opinions.

[burningsquirrels]

if you find a deal on a used one, by all means go for it. if you have something to shot with now, just shoot what you got. don't worry about buying stuff, just get started. the majority of your decisions can be more informed once you've gone out and shot a few times.

[ck1]

The best option money-wise to performance IMO is an 85 Combat... they're born without firing pin blocks and at around $500 they're perfect as a base-gun to build on and a lot of gun for the money, down the road you can add a CZCustoms competition hammer and lighter hammer-spring and you'll end up with the exact same trigger awesomeness as a Shadow Custom, it'll be compatible with any of the current CZ 75-style and/or SP-01/Shadow mags and you'll be free to add different sights if you want and get current replacement parts easily. They're fantastic guns, they're fully ambi, and really, after the hammer/spring upgrade may leave you wanting for nothing.

I've seen those inexpensive pre-B trade-in 75's out there too and have been tempted myself, but they take pre-B mags which are tough to get and expensive and some of their small-parts can be hard to come by... so best to skip them unless for nostalgia/collection reasons.

[grimaldi]

I've seen those inexpensive pre-B trade-in 75's out there too and have been tempted myself, but they take pre-B mags which are tough to get and expensive and some of their small-parts can be hard to come by... so best to skip them unless for nostalgia/collection reasons.

This is some of the stuff I was hoping to see....or rather, hoping wouldn't exist but wanted to find out before making a purchase. As a novice, I'd assume a 75 from the early 90s would use the same basic parts/magazines as the newer ones, but if not, that becomes an issue for maintenance and upgrades in the future.

As for the Combat 85, I'd be interested to hear more about what makes it such a good option. The CZ webpage doesn't offer much, just saying the 85 is the ambidextrous version of the 75, and the Combat has "some additional features. The CZ 85 Combat features a fully adjustable rear sight, extended magazine release, ambidextrous slide stop and safety catch, drop free magazine and over travel adjustment on the trigger".

Actually, the P-07 looks neat, too, and with most engagements in USPSA at close ranges, the shorter length shouldn't affect things too much. On the other hand, there are some long range targets that a longer weapon will engage more accurately, and the light weight may make it a little slower to manage on follow up shots. Different trigger system, too, which may or may not be a good thing.

[DWFAN]

The only thing that kept me away from an 85 Combat is the different beavertail. I just couldnt get used to it. But if you like it, then its a great gun. Basically a short dustcover Shadow. The 85C has no FPB. Makes IDPA weight no problem if you want to play there also.

The P-07 to me feels cheap, and lacks the weight of a steel gun that the 75's have.

[ck1]

DWFAN pretty much said it, the 85C's are the only other CZ's besides the Shadows born without a FPB (well, there's the TS' too but they're a different frame more suited to Limited) and that let's them deliver a cleaner trigger and far shorter reset than the FPB-equipped "B" CZ's. They trade-off is they use the older-style duck-tail frame as opposed to the higher-upswept-beavertail-type frame like on an SP-01/Shadow... for a lot of guys/hands that isn't a deal-breaker as they still feel better than most guns out there, but that said, I too prefer the upswept-beavertail guns and shooting a friends SP-01 is what got me off the fence and started down the CZ path, I say handle them both and then decide what feels/works better for you and your hands now that you're aware that there are two different types of frames (honestly, before I knew there was a difference I had no issue with the duck-tailed guns). There are a few 75B variants out there that have the higher-upswept-beavertail frame (the Limited Editions, some of the Stainless models, maybe a couple others), but they all have FPB's too so if you think you've just got to have the newer-style frame AND the super-short trigger-reset (and still be legal for gun games) it looks like you'll be saving for a Shadow. FWIW, remember that the reset distance even with the B-model guns is close to that of a Glock's and already considered pretty short at half the distance of a Sig's or H&K's reset length.

The P-07's have what's called an "Omega" trigger-system instead of the traditional CZ set-up, and while they may deliver a slightly better pull out-of-the-box and Tge ability to switch from a decocker to a safety set-up, they also can't be enhanced with a CZC competition hammer, and if I told you that wasn't a big deal I'd be lying.

Hear me now, believe me later, plan on installing the competition hammer, the difference it makes is just astounding... it's not just shorter hooks either, it's totally different geometry with a higher, raised sear-bed that let's the hammer "park" and sit in a different manner and while a stock hammer's hooks can be recut to get close, without the built-up sear-bed it cannot match or duplicate all of what the competition hammer does. A CZ upgraded with a comp hammer installed is about as good or better than the best 1911 triggers in SA and as good as the best revolvers in DA, it's the best $63 you may ever spend on a pistol ever.

[rhgunguy]

I found the best way to do a slow build is slowly build your savings account and get the Shadow Custom. My Custom became the reason I worked overtime. Glad I did, it was worth it. Now it's an 1.5" Les Baer Premier II.

I have looked at getting a surplus pre-B 75 and putting better parts into it for a cheap IDPA legal blaster and something for my friend to shoot USPSA with. Unfortunatly I don't have the neccesary tools or skills and it isn't a ton cheaper. Maybe I'll get a short dust cover shadow after the Les.

I'll be in Des Moines for the State Fair in about a month. If there is a match while I'm in town you can shoot it and see for yourself.

Edited July 1, 2011 by rhgunguy

[beltjones]

FWIW, the Shadow comes with an upgraded hammer that is geometrically very similar to the comp hammer (though not in appearances). I swapped the two hammers back and forth in my shadow and couldn't tell a difference at all.

Now, in my 75B going to the comp hammer made a world of difference. It isn't on the same planet as a good 1911 trigger (the pretravel is really long), but it's night and day better than it was when it was stock.

Anyway, in my opinion if you buy this shadow: http://czcustom.com/CZ-75-SP01-SHADOW-PolyCoat-9mm.aspx you do not need the comp hammer.

[eerw]

Hear me now, believe me later,

LOL

as the others have said...the main advantage of the Shadow level guns ( SP01 Shadow/75 Shadow ) is the lack of the firing pin block. yes the 85C has that same advantage, then you get into the beavertail shape.

Comp hammer or Cajun Gunworks hammer can be added to any of the CZ platforms. So the biggest things to decide at the start is whether you can deal with a firing pin block and what beavertail shape you want.

any of the CZ guns.

Upgrade sights is about $75

Comp hammer is $63

Springs about $10

those would be the big things to add

You can DIY of the action job or spend around a $100 for someone to do it for you.

I competed with a CZ75 stainless for a year that had a GREAT trigger on it ( just under 5# DA, 1.8# SA ) with the firing pin block, and another GM shooter offered me a price I couldn't refuse!

[burningsquirrels]

sounds like having equipment is pretty important to you, so let me answer your original question:

"Can you slow build a Shadow level gun?"

no, because the shadow has no firing pin block, and the 85c doesn't have the improved ergonomics or up-front weight.

so, go get a stock shadow and shoot the crap out of it! put in an 11# recoil and #13 hammer spring and whatever grips you want and go for it.

[grimaldi]

Well, I'm not really an equipment freak or anything, but it's hardly a secret that certain guns are better for certain specific events (like USPSA production). I could certainly compete with my compact sig 250 and continue to improve my skills, but at some point that gun's limitations will become a factor holding back my performance, and there's not a lot that can be done to improve that gun's issues (long trigger pull and reset).

Looks like there are three routes to take:

1- save up and buy the shadow from the get go

gun has best ergonomics and trigger, but will take a while to get (actually, could get now but would incur wrath of wife)

2- get CZ 85 combat

can get more easily and can eventually get excellent trigger, but ergonomics may not quite match SP-01

3- get SP-01

can get more easily, has good ergonomics but will never have best trigger due to FPB

of course, how big a difference the FPB makes for an otherwise tricked-out trigger, or how much faster on target/less muzzle flip an SP-01 has over an 85 may be pretty minimal. Might just have to watch gunbroker, gunsamerica and local gunshows while saving for deals that are too good to pass up!

[burningsquirrels]

the difference between an fpb and non fpb trigger at their best is maybe 020 or 030 at the most on the reset, a hair.

[rhgunguy]

Don't forget to watch the classifieds here...like a hawk.

[heckofagator]

I was curious, having a SP-01 Shadow Custom for USPSA, I had thought about trying to make weight into IDPA, but how would the ergomonics of the Shadow SP-01 and CZ85C compare? i.e. could you have the Shadow for USPSA and CZ85C for IPDA and go fairly easily between the two? Ideally, it'd be nice to have the same for both, but I'm wondering how having 2 different firearms might work.

[burningsquirrels]

the 85c has less weight up front so a little more recoil. The tail goes straight back instead of curving up. The mag button is smaller and not extended.

[rhgunguy]

I was curious, having a SP-01 Shadow Custom for USPSA, I had thought about trying to make weight into IDPA, but how would the ergomonics of the Shadow SP-01 and CZ85C compare? i.e. could you have the Shadow for USPSA and CZ85C for IPDA and go fairly easily between the two? Ideally, it'd be nice to have the same for both, but I'm wondering how having 2 different firearms might work.

Get the 75 Shadow if you want one gun for both. It'd be a lot cheaper than a Custom and a Combat too.

[heckofagator]

I was curious, having a SP-01 Shadow Custom for USPSA, I had thought about trying to make weight into IDPA, but how would the ergomonics of the Shadow SP-01 and CZ85C compare? i.e. could you have the Shadow for USPSA and CZ85C for IPDA and go fairly easily between the two? Ideally, it'd be nice to have the same for both, but I'm wondering how having 2 different firearms might work.

Get the 75 Shadow if you want one gun for both. It'd be a lot cheaper than a Custom and a Combat too.

Well, I have the Shadow already from the custom shop. I thought I'd be interested in reducing the weight to get into IDPA SSP, but maybe I'm just trying to talk myself into another toy - the 85C. I know there are subtle differences, just curious how easy it'd be to go from one to the other in practice and competitions.