Gaming

[Scooter]

I'm curious what people think of this.  I've concluded that the optimum mag capacity is 9 rounds in SSP or ESP.  This is with max capacity since it's a FTDR to down load the mags.  When you load 10 + 1 rounds, either you go to slide lock hitting the target only once and have to re-engage the target after the reload or you are forced to do a tactical reload.  If you can get 9 + 1, then you don't have to re-engage a target after a reload and you have enough rounds to finish a 18 round stage.

Can anyone agree with me on this one?

[Joe D]

Scooter, I shoot a .40 Kimber and a 9mm SA in ESP. Since all mags changes are done from cover,exception being the Classifier, I don't think it makes much difference. My Kimber holds 9, the SA 10. You have to load to the max on the first mag anyway. 9 +1 or 10 + 1. Not all stages are 18 rounds, some are as little as 6. Unlike IPSC one cannot leave partially loaded mags on the ground. Expending extra rounds down range just to get to slide lock can get you in trouble also.

[Steve Moneypenny]

i don't know of any guns with only 9 round mags suitable for SSP. that said, in ESP, i use 9 round 38 super mags. i think it's a little nuts to use the 10 round mags. here is my reasoning.

first, your at a disadvantage to the guys like me who use 9 round mags because you have to reload in the middle of targets, personally i have sometimes forgot to finish off that target.. OOPS! second, my guy doesn't want to work right with 10+1, and RO's get mad if i only load 10 rounds and don't top off, its extremely hard to seat the 10 round mags in tac-reloads.

now, if you do use 9 round mags do NOT have any 10 round mags with you at the range, not in the car, range bag, not even with you! that keeps the whiners from saying ( he was gaming, using 10 round mags on steel!)

bottom line, you MUST LOAD YOUR GUN TO ITS MAX CAPACITY, presuming it is only 11 rounds after that your in trouble the other way.

[Scooter]

Just to let you know, I shoot a HK P7M8 in ESP which holds 8 rounds.  I won't have any issues with having a 10 round mag because none exist.  I am working on cramming an extra round into the mag.

Besides running into the problem of forgetting to re-engage a target, sometimes I go into brain fade and fire another two shots at the target, wasting valuable time.

I'll run some drills next time I'm at the range to see if it is faster.

Drill 1: with 1 round in the gun, step out of cover, fire 1 shot into T1, reload behind cover, step out again, fire 1 round into T1 and 2 into T2.

Drill 2: with 2 rounds in the gun, step out, fire 2 into T1, reload behind cover, step out and 2 into T2.

The difference won't be that great, probably around 0.20 sec, but it'll add up.

[Steve Moneypenny]

while your at it do this.

fire 2 rounds at T1 reload from cover, and put 2 rounds on T2. i think that should be the fastest of all. just my way of thinking. but if you break everything down.

you Acquire target one. fire one round, reload acquire target 1 fire one round, acquire target 2 and fire 2 rounds.

that leaves you with an extra target acquisition there. AND an target transition that would not exist if you did it my way. ...... just my thinking on why i have 9 round mags. that in my times would be atleast a half second. ( transition and an extra acquisition) probabally more since i am a little slow in the eyes.

let us know how it turns out.

[Singlestack]

I think after reading this thread I will give IDPA a try. If for no other reason than to "game" away. I have read a lot of posts about the "gamers" and I want to be one .

This is the remark that got me:

"now, if you do use 9 round mags do NOT have any 10 round mags with you at the range, not in the car, range bag, not even with you! that keeps the whiners from saying ( he was gaming, using 10 round mags on steel!) "

Think about it..... this whole thread is about "gaming"...

Do guy's really complain when they perceive a shooter to be "gaming"? It is a "game" right? I'm a "gamer" so I think I would like it.

[John Thompson]

The tatical reload is not tactical and the proof that all it causes is problems is shown by this discussion.  I see guys trying to game the reload at almost very match I shoot.  I'm tempted to game it just because I'm tired of being told how to shoot, and I'm tired of competing against guys who buy guns to game the game.  The so- called tactical reload is only good for bringing the equipment race to the IDPA

(Edited by John Thompson at 12:50 am on Sep. 24, 2001)

[Scooter]

smoney, I think the only additional time would be in the target transition.  In either drills, you have to acquire a target after the reload, either T1 or T2.  So the only time loss is in the transition from T1 to T2.  Unless T2 is on the other side of a barricade or a wall.  In general I think a 9 round mag will work out better in most situations.

The only way any sport can eliminate the equipment race is if the organization supplies all the equipment like in IROC racing.  IDPA left many doors open for gaming.  The SSP class is one of them.  IMO SSP should be DA/SA and DAO guns only, and with a minimum trigger pull of at least 7 lbs for the first shot.  Glocks need to be move to ESP unless it satisfies my requirement for SSP because the trigger feels more like a SA and that 3.5 lbs trigger is not on a level playing field when a DA/SA user has to shoot that 10+ lbs DA first shot.

[Joe D]

John, you will have to attend the IDPA gaming class first. IDPA gamers are slightly different than IPSC ones. I have some equipment you will need. Cable reel for your mags, springloaded vest for concealment, pants pocket extenders to catch the mags if the reel breaks.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Single stack, Yes its a game, but those idpa people get real pissy about that mag thing i actually had a buddy of mine shooting a S/A 38 super have friends/jealous RO's miss count his shots and make him prove he didn't have 10 round mags, because if he did he would get a FTDR ( failure to do right for those who aren't into the IDPA rules) which is a 20 second penalty haven't seen many of those delt out in my almost 2 years of competitive shooting, but don't want one either.

[Flexmoney]

What a pain in the a**.  I may never shoot an IDPA match.  

...short courses, silly rules, pretend tactical

IDPA sounds like it is run by a bunch of democratic politicians.  How about not telling me how to shoot?  Tell me what needs to be shot and let me suprise you with my ingenuity (loose Patton quote).

I am sure Bill will straighten me out the next time I see him at a match.  But, I can't see why I would want to shoot IDPA if I had a choice to shoot another type match.

[Singlestack]

Kyle,

Don't you think it would be fun making folks whine about you being a "gamer"? I think I would like that......

It might be fun watching somebody come up with reasons why I should not "game" a game

Think I'll study up on the rules and go push them to the limit.

[John Thompson]

Joe D  you forgot the guys who put their tatical reload in a flimsy tee shirt pocket instead of a secure pants pocket.  I loose a lot of time to those guys and it's getting worse as now when I go to a match almost everyone is wearing what I call the "IDPA T-Shirt".

[talon]

Looks like the new rule will help you out then .

. To be in the “spirit” of the stage, the shooter must retain the magazine in one of the following ways PRIOR to the firing of the first shot after a tactical load: pants pocket, vest pocket, jacket pocket, waistband or magazine pouch. Using specially designed pockets, shirt pockets or holding the magazine in the hand or teeth is NOT permitted.

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Quote: from John Thompson on 8:48 am on Sep. 24, 2001

Joe D  you forgot the guys who put their tatical reload in a flimsy tee shirt pocket instead of a secure pants pocket.  I loose a lot of time to those guys and it's getting worse as now when I go to a match almost everyone is wearing what I call the "IDPA T-Shirt".

---

[Bill]

*****Bill, sneaking out of lurker mode for a short post*****

Kyle,

You would enjoy IDPA just like you enjoy all the other shooting sports. Because you get to shoot.

All the shooting sports have their own rules that you must follow if you shoot that game. (yes game)

IPSC, USPSA, GSSF, SASS, ICORE, IDPA, Steel Challange, Bianchi Cup, Second Chance not to mention all the local ranges that all have their own rules. Each has a set of rules different from all others. IDPA & IPSC are closer than many people think. I think IPSC in other countries have a lot of short stages a lot like IDPA.

It's all good because it is shooting.

Bill

[Flexmoney]

Bill said:

Kyle,

You would enjoy IDPA just like you enjoy all the other shooting sports. Because you get to shoot.

Guilty as charged.  

[Joe D]

John, please forward me a check for $500 so I can enroll you in my Nov. class of Gamer 101. Included is a free catalog with all the latest gaming equipment for IDPA.  I am working on a new boot with a funnel top to make those mag changes with retention sooo easy.

[John Thompson]

Gaming in IPSC dosen't really bother me because it's expected and only sometimes does someone find a way to game a stage AFTER I shoot it and really have effect on the match standings.  Don't get me wrong though, I  don't like it, sometimes hate it and wish it would stop.  In the IDPA however no gaming is supposed to be one of the pillars of the sport and was supposed to save the shooting world from the evil of IPSC gamers.  Unfortunatley and expectantly the IDPA has grown it's own crop of gamers and with the way the IPDA scores and the kind of gaming you can do, gaming has a BIG effect on scores and match standings.  

(Edited by John Thompson at 12:23 pm on Sep. 25, 2001)