Larrys1911 Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 BTW one more thing that should not be allowed is letting a shooter fill up his hi-cap mag during the Classifier Match to make the stages run faster. This is adding weight to the gun which is not legal. Now that's one I've never heard before. If Heavy is so much better, how come the 1911 aint ALWAYS smoking the Glocks? Something else thats WAY overrated......Im certain thats keeping many people out of the next class! On top of which anyone that is trying to move up on the classifier that hard has my support! Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 When was the last national level competition that the ESP shooter shooting a 1911 in sub caliber had the overall best time...To answer the above question, Ill save you some time. I Dont think its been done, EVER! As I said ESP has NEVER had the fastest time of any nats. 1999. IDPA Nationals. Scott Warren in ESP. Springfield 1911 in .40 S&W. Best score of any division. Not sure what you mean by "sub caliber." Aren't they all calibers? OK so ONE time in SEVEN YEARS, every other time it has been won by a CDP or SSP gun.......SO if ESP guns are so much easier to shoot, how come it doesnt show in the results? BTW I have a Springfield 9mm that I absolutely LOVE but I think its hard to shoot "for me" than a 45 1911 even ran a couple tests to prove it. The recoil impulse is just different. BTW thanks for pointing that one out I missed it:D Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 This years Nats there were stages that favored the 10 and 11 round guns and it showed. I believe you mean the Winter Championships. The IDPA Nationals haven't occurred yet this year. Actually it was last years Nats that I was talking about, Ive never attended the Winter Championships unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 Duane, if recoil is not an issue then why is ESP factored to be more difficult than CDP? Master in ESP = 89.41 CDP = 91.76. Does this not imply that a 9mm/.40 1911 is easier to shoot than a .45 1911? I didn't say it's not a factor. Of course it is. I agreed with the idea that it IS a factor, just not as big a one as many people like to think. Thus the minimal difference in classification standards between CDP and ESP. 2.35 seconds divided by 14 stages equals a whopping .17 second per string. I mean, I'm not peeing on that, I'll take every little bit I can get, but let's not kid ourselves, this is a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 I guess what you are saying is if someone at the "Load and make ready" command has 11 rounds in their mag they should be given a 3 sec. procedural or a 20 sec FTDR. I have never seen these penalities given at the Nationals or any State match.What I have seen is a shooter at the start of a stage show the RO his mag with 11 rounds in it. Then they're not following the rules. Which is fine by me, it's a stupid rule. But it is a rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 OK so ONE time in SEVEN YEARS, every other time it has been won by a CDP or SSP gun.......SO if ESP guns are so much easier to shoot, how come it doesnt show in the results? Well, it MIGHT have something to do the fact the CDP and SSP guns are being fired by Rob Leatham, Dave Sevigny and Ernie Langdon. But that's just my theory. Anyway, I'm not saying ESP guns are SO much easier to shoot. They're not. You said ESP has never had the top score at any IDPA Nationals. I just pointed out that's not true. That's it. It's all good. BTW thanks for pointing that one out I missed it Yer welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 OK so ONE time in SEVEN YEARS, every other time it has been won by a CDP or SSP gun.......SO if ESP guns are so much easier to shoot, how come it doesnt show in the results? Well, it MIGHT have something to do the fact the CDP and SSP guns are being fired by Rob Leatham, Dave Sevigny and Ernie Langdon. But that's just my theory. Anyway, I'm not saying ESP guns are SO much easier to shoot. They're not. You said ESP has never had the top score at any IDPA Nationals. I just pointed out that's not true. That's it. It's all good. BTW thanks for pointing that one out I missed it Yer welcome. Duane, Sorry, you mis read my tone. I am not upset or anything, simply pointing out that ONCE in seven times the overall best score was taken by an ESP gun! IF they were as much easier to shoot as some seem to think I would think they would be showing up at the top all the time, not rarely! It wasnt really directed at you but at those that keep saying they are so much easier to shoot. As to you second comment, Thats true but dont forget there are people like Matt Burkett, Todd Jarret, Scott Warren shooting the ESP guns too so that doesnt wash. Joe D, It makes a difference, but so does what kind of holster and mag pouches you use. I dont think it makes even that much difference for me. My Bill drills while I was shooting the 45 were faster than shooting 40S&W, 38Super & 9mm in 1911s. And my loads were 200gr LSWCs running about 960fps. All the others were running 135PF at most. Larry P edited to remove a REALLY weird run on sentence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 Sorry, you mis read my tone. I am not upset or anything Me, neither. My "it's all good" was meant to say I'm not upset. Ah, the joys of communicating over the Internet, where you can't see the other person's facial expression or hear their tone of voice. Sometimes the little smilies just don't get the job done. And my loads were 200gr LSWCs running about 960fps. Good God, why? That's a 192 power factor. Were they giving extra points for studliness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 Good God, why? That's a 192 power factor. Were they giving extra points for studliness? I was Running AA#5 and TRYING to get rid of it. I took the load up to Max trying to use it faster and get it to burn better, I went through 7#s that way. I had to borrow some ammo to finish a local IPSC match a while back. The only thing on the range was some Factory 230 Hardball. The guy that gave them to me made the comment that I would probably fall apart it when I got to shooting those and made some silly comment about too much recoil. I told him I would be fine. When I was done he said " so you didnt have to use them after all huh?" "Yes, After the 1st mag it was all (two more mags) your ammo you didnt notice the difference?" "No I didnt!" "Me either" That was after I had dropped my loads down to around PF too. Its MOSTLY in everyones MIND! If you "think" it makes a difference, it probably does. At least to you! That 26oz 44 mag now THATS recoil! Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 I shoot Armscor 230gr FMJ (185PF) and IMI 230gr FMJ (190PF) in my .45, but when I shoot my 9mm with cheap 115gr FMJ the difference is like night and day. But it must be all in my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 I shoot Armscor 230gr FMJ (185PF) and IMI 230gr FMJ (190PF) in my .45, but when I shoot my 9mm with cheap 115gr FMJ the difference is like night and day. But it must be all in my head. How much is "night and day"? I cant put #s to that. Give me some splits and Bill Drills and stuff like that! Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEPAKevin Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 C'mon Larry, Friends don't let friends reload with AA#5. <bleah> Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 C'mon Larry,Friends don't let friends reload with AA#5. <bleah> Kevin DONT GET ME STARTED ON THAT CRAP, That powder would have to be the cheapest on the market (by a BUNCH) for me to ever mess with it for pistol again!! People Talk about Unique..... While back I was offered 6.5# for $35, hes still got it! before this thread REALLY drifts..... Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 How much is "night and day"?I cant put #s to that. Give me some splits and Bill Drills and stuff like that! Larry P Man, you're a harda**, Larry! I'll try to get some times the next time we practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 If the "tactical" shooting game would let folks shoot what they carry regarding magazines, this would be a non issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 How much is "night and day"?I cant put #s to that. Give me some splits and Bill Drills and stuff like that! Larry P Man, you're a harda**, Larry! I'll try to get some times the next time we practice. Go into it with an open mind and I bet you get suprised, I sure was! Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 I had to borrow some ammo to finish a local IPSC match a while back. The only thing on the range was some Factory 230 Hardball. The guy that gave them to me made the comment that I would probably fall apart it when I got to shooting those and made some silly comment about too much recoil. I told him I would be fine. Wotta maroon - as that great sage Bugs Bunny said. Though I have to admit, after years of firing 170 pf loads, I actually had begun to wonder whether I'd lost the ability to control a manly load - y'know, like .45 hardball. Came the day a few months ago I wanted to shoot an IDPA match and had no match ammo loaded. Said to myself, "I guess we're gonna find out," grabbed two boxes of .45 ball and hit the road. Yeah, the recoil difference was there, but by the second or third stage I didn't even notice it. I won that match, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 I shoot Armscor 230gr FMJ (185PF) and IMI 230gr FMJ (190PF) in my .45, but when I shoot my 9mm with cheap 115gr FMJ the difference is like night and day. But it must be all in my head. Not all. Just mostly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 If the "tactical" shooting game would let folks shoot what they carry regarding magazines, this would be a non issue. Yeah, really. Everyone would be shooting a Glock 17/34 with high cap mags and +2 floorplates. Except for those of us too stupid to give up our singlestack .45s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron durham Posted April 24, 2004 Author Share Posted April 24, 2004 Hi Shooters: Let me give you my thoughts on the ESP. I too in the late 90s thought the only way to go in the ESP would be a single stack 9mm or 40 calibur so naturally I had to have both. Both were custom built Caspians, I did lot of the work and my good friend Bruce Gray installed the barrels. Both were tack drivers. I was able after a couple weeks of good practice to shoot consistent 80 score in the IDPA classifier. My best friend kept goding me to buy a new Glock 34. Him being a Police Chief, me being an Asst. Firearms Instructor, I was able to pick up a 34 for $409, so I did thinking ho hum. Got a good Blade Tech holster, went to the range, practiced for an hour, bill drills and such. Set up the classifier, to my amazement shot an 81 thinking this can't be shot it again, shot an 83 or 84. Put everything in the car and headed for home. Of course this tells me one thing......it is the shooter. My next thought......why do I need two $1,500 guns when that ugly black gun was actually starting to look pretty good. Sold both single stacks for $2,500, bought a 35 to go with the 34, had Bruce Gray install two Barstow barrels, have about $l,700 left over that is still sitting in my safe and the bonus of course is the gun works everytime, does not occassionally slide lock when it shouldn't and the last round doesn't dive. I shoot both guns in ESP and do very well. Now this is probably going to raise some eyebrows.......for the new shooter out there that doesn't have enough money.....that wants to go up against the so called best in ESP find the best deal you can on an XD40, spend about $125 for a Bruce Gray trigger job, YOU MUST FEEL IT TO BELIEVE IT. Put a Dawson front sight on for about $40, black out the two dots on the back sight, you will have one of the finest handguns for the money that is perfectly suitable for ESP. Well, hopefully this post will keep the thread going. Of course this is just my opinions. Ron Durham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 Fantastic post!!! Basic gun (that runs)...clean up the trigger...put on decent sights...take the money saved and buy primers, pills and powder. Awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 Ron, evidently you don't understand how the game is played. You should be placing your order for an SVI Cross Comp gun. A $2,000 carry gun is what you need. You shoot Glocks? I heard they blow up all the time. Plus they are b_tt ugly. Why would anyone want a plastic gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Gonsalves Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 Hi All, I agree with Ron, the XD can be a great place to start. My Girlfriend shot one for a year and half. She has since switched to a Glock 35. Ron, speaks of the trigger job on the XD done by Bruce Gray. Well Ron works his own magic on Glock triggers! Ron's Glock trigger jobs are AMAZING! They're so nice I broke down and bought a Glock for myself, and I'm a diehard 1911/2011 shooter! Brian P.S. Oh, I have a Custom built Single stack 9 + 1 .40 S&W I shoot in ESP One other thing, I'll have to agree with Joe D on one point. Glocks aren't the best looking gun! Has anyone noticed how nice a 1911 looks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBaneACP Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 I love this thread...it gives me something to do in hotel rooms while I'm waiting for the cheesey movie to start... Rhino, almost EVERYTHING is all in your head, and I only thank Krishna that no one's out there doing one of those "Being John Malcovich" things on it! Ron, Bruce Gray remains one of the most amazing "secrets" in the gunsmithing business, which is *really* amazing since he's been around since amphibians first started walking on land. He rebuilt my girlfriend's hapless 9mm 1911, which came out so nice I "borrowed" it for Bill Roger's class a few weeks ago. I'm convinced Bruce could carve a working 1911 out of a bar of soap. BTW, he's building me THE &$#%!@ ULTIMATE ESP GUN...a tricked out Star BM!!! Yes, eat your hearts out with envy. The total trump card in any trick gun conversation. Heaven alone knows what Bruce is doing to it, but I'll bet when it's finished it's going to be a MONSTER. Maybe I'll get it dura-coated blue, with a red frame. Good taste is, indeed, timeless. And, finally, most of this thread would vanish if IDPA World Command would be true to their own principles and eliminate their "Tackywhacktical Reload" before they get some poor schlepp killed. RANT MODE OFF! Michael B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 Has anyone noticed how nice a 1911 looks? That was part of John Browning's genius, he totally avoided making the choice between "form versus function." On so many guns, especially in our modern era, considerations of esthetic appeal have been totally sublimated to functionality. John Moses Browning, on the other hand, designed guns that worked better than anything had before AND were beautiful. I'm convinced one of the reasons the 1911's survived as long as it has (aside from all the other reasons) is simply how beautiful it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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