CZinSC Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 With the recent threads about start positions and mags on the belt vs mags in the hands, and whether or not it will result in your getting bumped to Open, it got me thinking……We all know, at least I hope we do, that when you run afoul of equipment rules while shooting Production, you are bumped to Open. I’m not here to argue the circumstances for that action, I’m here to understand the reason for being bumped to Open, as opposed to Limited or L10. Can someone clarify why: Shooting Production, you have your mag pouches in front of your hip bone, why are you bumped to open, and not Limited 10? L10 seems to be a more logical choice. You have a better chance of being competitive if you were bumped to L10 Minor, over Open Minor. Shooting Production, you loaded 12 rounds in a mag, and shot all 12, why are you bumped to Open and not Limited? Again, seems like you’d have a better chance of being competitive in Lim Minor over Open Minor. Seems to me, that whatever caused you to not comply with your stated division’s rules, as long as it is allowed in the next division up the line, you should be moved there. If not the next one, then then one after that. Ie: production/single stack to L10, L10 to Limited. Don’t know much about revolver rules, so not sure what to say about that. Yes, I fully agree it’s the shooters responsibility to know the rules and not break them. The easy answer to my question is just do what the rule says and not worry about it. Again, I’m not arguing the ruling, just trying to understand the decision for the outcome. The only rationale I can think of is that since you can have similar circumstances for the other divisions, it’s just easier to say if you don’t abide by the rules, you go to Open. That way there is no figuring out which division to put you in, you just simply go to Open. For the record, I did a search, and couldn’t find any previous posts addressing this. So if there is one, I would welcome someone pointing me to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 You get bumped to open only after two things happen. First you have to declare another division. Secondly after the start signal your equipment does not meet the requirements of the divison you declared. Unfortunately some accidents can occur but also unfortunately , some try to get away with things., Jim G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdpaz Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 I can't speak for the intent of the rule, but why would you deserve "a better chance to be competitive" after cheating? Certainly it may well be unintentional but if you hadn't been caught you would have had an advantage over others in your original division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Simply put, the bump to Open is meant to be punitive. It's meant to hurt. Hopefully it will convince someone not to go there a second time. What incentive would there be to cheat and simply get moved to the most equipment-relevant division? Not much, I think. "Oh! I'll try this, and if I get caught, they'll just put me where I was supposed to be all along!" Have I given newbies a pass for not knowing better? Sure. Experienced shooters? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Well according to the discussion on this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=123461&view=findpost&p=1395104, a shooter who has been bumped to Open gets a free pass to do all kinds of reconfiguration on their equipment before they shoot their next course of fire. Based on that, a shooter has every opportunity to to be more competitive in Open if they wanted to (assuming they brought extra gear and tools to do the reconfiguration). The major handicap will be for a Production shooter, once they've declared Production, they will always be scored minor, even if their new gear configuration gets them going Major at the Chrono station. I think that a revolver shooter getting bumped to Open is pretty much hosed all around, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Well according to the discussion on this thread: http://www.brianenos...dpost&p=1395104, a shooter who has been bumped to Open gets a free pass to do all kinds of reconfiguration on their equipment before they shoot their next course of fire. Based on that, a shooter has every opportunity to to be more competitive in Open if they wanted to (assuming they brought extra gear and tools to do the reconfiguration). The major handicap will be for a Production shooter, once they've declared Production, they will always be scored minor, even if their new gear configuration gets them going Major at the Chrono station. I think that a revolver shooter getting bumped to Open is pretty much hosed all around, unfortunately. And depending upon how many stages they shot before the bump, it would hurt regardless of the opportunity to reconfigure their gear (at least I hope it would). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Well according to the discussion on this thread: http://www.brianenos...dpost&p=1395104, a shooter who has been bumped to Open gets a free pass to do all kinds of reconfiguration on their equipment before they shoot their next course of fire. Based on that, a shooter has every opportunity to to be more competitive in Open if they wanted to (assuming they brought extra gear and tools to do the reconfiguration). The major handicap will be for a Production shooter, once they've declared Production, they will always be scored minor, even if their new gear configuration gets them going Major at the Chrono station. I think that a revolver shooter getting bumped to Open is pretty much hosed all around, unfortunately. And depending upon how many stages they shot before the bump, it would hurt regardless of the opportunity to reconfigure their gear (at least I hope it would). Yup, I agree. Can't undo the scores in the past, unless somebody does somebody causes a set of reshoots under 2.3.3.2, or 3.2.6.1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Well according to the discussion on this thread: http://www.brianenos...dpost&p=1395104, a shooter who has been bumped to Open gets a free pass to do all kinds of reconfiguration on their equipment before they shoot their next course of fire. Based on that, a shooter has every opportunity to to be more competitive in Open if they wanted to (assuming they brought extra gear and tools to do the reconfiguration). The major handicap will be for a Production shooter, once they've declared Production, they will always be scored minor, even if their new gear configuration gets them going Major at the Chrono station. I think that a revolver shooter getting bumped to Open is pretty much hosed all around, unfortunately. And depending upon how many stages they shot before the bump, it would hurt regardless of the opportunity to reconfigure their gear (at least I hope it would). Yup, I agree. Can't undo the scores in the past, unless somebody does somebody causes a set of reshoots under 2.3.3.2, or 3.2.6.1. Huh? I must have missed something along the way. What do those have to do with equipment rules for the various divisions? At best, that seems like an entirely different conversation. Neither of those rules even remotely relate to someone who violates the equipment requirements for their declared division. Both apply to a declaration of a change in the CoF by match management due to competitor actions or REF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted May 4, 2011 Author Share Posted May 4, 2011 Simply put, the bump to Open is meant to be punitive. It's meant to hurt. Hopefully it will convince someone not to go there a second time. What incentive would there be to cheat and simply get moved to the most equipment-relevant division? Not much, I think. "Oh! I'll try this, and if I get caught, they'll just put me where I was supposed to be all along!" Have I given newbies a pass for not knowing better? Sure. Experienced shooters? No. Thanks Mark, this makes sense. I suppose I was looking at it from the perspective of a shooter that didn't realize his holster was too far forward, or loaded 11 or 12 by accident. It seems harsh to penalize that guy with a trip to Open. But like you said, it will make him think twice next time and get his head out of his rear end and comply the next time. For the guy that does it knowing he's breaking the rules, yes, put that SOB into Open! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 I like that we use big boy rules. Screw up, then you eat it. That keeps the responsibility on the shooter...where it should be. And,...it gives us a taste of our "practical" roots. Rule #1...bring stuff that works. Oh...I've shot a State match in Open, after starting in Production. It was a spare parts issue for me. I called for the RM and let him know that I'd need to go to Open. I think he might have given me a pass, but I knew...better than anybody...that my spare part just wasn't quite Production legal. I did have a blast shooting Open. (and...I still got to shoot) ...bring stuff that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Huh? I must have missed something along the way. What do those have to do with equipment rules for the various divisions? At best, that seems like an entirely different conversation.Neither of those rules even remotely relate to someone who violates the equipment requirements for their declared division. Both apply to a declaration of a change in the CoF by match management due to competitor actions or REF. That's how a bump to open wouldn't hurt so much, if you were lucky and got to reshoot your earlier stage(s) with your open equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Simply put, the bump to Open is meant to be punitive. It's meant to hurt. Hopefully it will convince someone not to go there a second time. What incentive would there be to cheat and simply get moved to the most equipment-relevant division? Not much, I think. "Oh! I'll try this, and if I get caught, they'll just put me where I was supposed to be all along!" Have I given newbies a pass for not knowing better? Sure. Experienced shooters? No. Thanks Mark, this makes sense. I suppose I was looking at it from the perspective of a shooter that didn't realize his holster was too far forward, or loaded 11 or 12 by accident. It seems harsh to penalize that guy with a trip to Open. But like you said, it will make him think twice next time and get his head out of his rear end and comply the next time. For the guy that does it knowing he's breaking the rules, yes, put that SOB into Open! It also eliminates any question of which division your gun may fall into, since all guns fit Open. No muss, no fuss. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 At the 2007 LPR Nationals I was shooting Production and was bumped into Limited because of a lttle piece of grip tape. I was not put in Open... when did this change? Still had a lot of fun shooting and it's much better than getting a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Huh? I must have missed something along the way. What do those have to do with equipment rules for the various divisions? At best, that seems like an entirely different conversation.Neither of those rules even remotely relate to someone who violates the equipment requirements for their declared division. Both apply to a declaration of a change in the CoF by match management due to competitor actions or REF. That's how a bump to open wouldn't hurt so much, if you were lucky and got to reshoot your earlier stage(s) with your open equipment. Exactly! Of course the probability of that is pretty slim, so a bump to Open will hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 (edited) I'm here to understand the reason for being bumped to Open, as opposed to Limited or L10. It ups the ante and increases the incentive to be SURE you meet the requirements of your division. The alternative is to let competitors creep right up to the edge with no real penalty for going too far. Consider Single Stack - If the alternative to going open was simply a bump to Lim 10, I could move my holster and mag pouches another couple of inches forward, ignore weight and size restrictions, and simply hope the ROs didn't notice - especially at matches that don't have a box or scale (i.e. most local and level II matches). If they did notice, I could pull out my 10 rd mags and still be just as competitive in L-10 as I was in SS. In production, the obvious strategy would be to run a 40 and hope that if the RO noticed a non-compliant mod or holster position, it was before chrono. If caught, an M&P or Glock in 40 major would be fully competitive in Lim-10, and could be competitive in Limited with fully loaded mags. On the other hand, no Production gun or SS setup is going to be competitive against open blasters unless you're the only member of the Super Squad who showed up to compete against a field of B, C, and D class shooters. So for the same reason we all bump our power factor 5-10 points higher than necessary, we pay close attention to division requirements. BB Edited May 4, 2011 by bbbean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 At the 2007 LPR Nationals I was shooting Production and was bumped into Limited because of a lttle piece of grip tape. I was not put in Open... when did this change? Still had a lot of fun shooting and it's much better than getting a DQ. It didn't change. Your placement into Limited was... controversial. Either way, it's not a DQ. At worst...it is shooting for no score. (in a case where Open division is not available...like at the Limited-Production-revovler Nationals)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 At the 2007 LPR Nationals I was shooting Production and was bumped into Limited because of a lttle piece of grip tape. I was not put in Open... when did this change? Still had a lot of fun shooting and it's much better than getting a DQ. It didn't change. Your placement into Limited was... controversial. Either way, it's not a DQ. At worst...it is shooting for no score. (in a case where Open division is not available...like at the Limited-Production-revovler Nationals)) Thanks Flex, I am still scratching my head over that one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 At the 2007 LPR Nationals I was shooting Production and was bumped into Limited because of a lttle piece of grip tape. I was not put in Open... when did this change? Still had a lot of fun shooting and it's much better than getting a DQ. Well, that was the wrong call. (While I'm unhappy that the wrong call got made -- that's not directed at you personally.) You should have been moved to Open, and if Open wasn't recognized at that match, you should have (effectively) shot for no score. The rulebook is -- and was then -- pretty specific on the penalty for busting division requirements... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 At the 2007 LPR Nationals I was shooting Production and was bumped into Limited because of a lttle piece of grip tape. I was not put in Open... when did this change? Still had a lot of fun shooting and it's much better than getting a DQ. Well, that was the wrong call. (While I'm unhappy that the wrong call got made -- that's not directed at you personally.) You should have been moved to Open, and if Open wasn't recognized at that match, you should have (effectively) shot for no score. The rulebook is -- and was then -- pretty specific on the penalty for busting division requirements... Yes I agree, I was pretty overwelmed being my first Nationals... I'm just glad that I had the opportunity to finish the match. It has confused me a bit, the ruling that is... Never make that mistake again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 At the 2007 LPR Nationals I was shooting Production and was bumped into Limited because of a lttle piece of grip tape. I was not put in Open... when did this change? Still had a lot of fun shooting and it's much better than getting a DQ. Well, that was the wrong call. (While I'm unhappy that the wrong call got made -- that's not directed at you personally.) You should have been moved to Open, and if Open wasn't recognized at that match, you should have (effectively) shot for no score. The rulebook is -- and was then -- pretty specific on the penalty for busting division requirements... Yes I agree, I was pretty overwelmed being my first Nationals... I'm just glad that I had the opportunity to finish the match. It has confused me a bit, the ruling that is... Never make that mistake again. Dan, on a personal level, of course I'm happy that you got to finish the match for score -- even in an unplanned division.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 In production, the obvious strategy would be to run a 40 and hope that if the RO noticed a non-compliant mod or holster position, it was before chrono. If caught, an M&P or Glock in 40 major would be fully competitive in Lim-10, and could be competitive in Limited with fully loaded mags. Running a 40 won't pay off. If you declared Production, and somehow it was allowed for you to move to Limited 10 or Limited instead of Open, you would still be scored 40 minor. See Special Conditions section of Appendix D4: Anyone signing up for Production is declaring minor regardless if the ammunition makes major at the chronograph. Should they be moved to another division, they will shoot minor for the entire match or sub-minor should their ammo fail to meet the minimum. As said before, though, it's straight to Open as a penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 (edited) At the 2007 LPR Nationals I was shooting Production and was bumped into Limited because of a lttle piece of grip tape. I was not put in Open... when did this change? Still had a lot of fun shooting and it's much better than getting a DQ. It didn't change. Your placement into Limited was... controversial. Either way, it's not a DQ. At worst...it is shooting for no score. (in a case where Open division is not available...like at the Limited-Production-revovler Nationals)) Alternately, if you get bumped to open at the LPR Nats or the SS Nats, you stand a much better chance of winning your division! Unfortunately, the prizes aren't nearly as good... Edited May 4, 2011 by bbbean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Alternately, if you get bumped to open at the LPR Nats or the SS Nats, you stand a much better chance of winning your division! Unfortunately, the prizes aren't nearly as good... I like the way you think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now