New Revolver for IDPA/USPSA?

[skdmrklcy]

I have just geared up for getting into IDPA (SSP) and USPSA (Production) with some Glock kit. I landed into some extra money though and would like to add a Revolver to build a setup around at some point. I have a Model 14-1 with 6" Barrel and a Model 19-5 with 2.5" barrel, I enjoy shooting these more than any other semi auto I have ever owned. I have never owned anything as accurate as the 14 before, I can put all 6 into one hole if I do my part.

This all brings me to my question, I am thinking about picking up a new revolver to add to the collection to at some point shoot at competition for fun. The big question is which one is the best option. I think I am confusing my self on rules and power factor... and my head hurts.

I am looking at either a 625 or a 686 SSR, the issue I can't figure out is the Power factor on the 686 seems that you have to reload to really hit, and cheap factory ammo will not cut it.

I am wrong about that? Is there another I should be looking at?

[cyberiad]

The SSR power factor ("floor") recently changed to 105,000. I reload so I don't know much about the available factory loads but I chronographed Federal American Eagle 130gr FMJ at around 124 last year. Here is a table with bullet weights and velocities http://www.ccidpa.org/idpa-power.html

[M1911]

As cyberiad said, the power factor is no longer an issue for SSR in IDPA. If you are going to shoot SSR in IDPA, consider a 4" K-frame as well. You can get a good used one for less than a new 686, and I find that they balance better. YMMV.

For USPSA, I think you'll want a moon-clip gun. If you use a moon-clip gun in IDPA, you'll be in ESR, rather than SSR.

[Bones]

The truth is you will not find a single choice that is optimal for both. You have to decide which way you'd like to bias the decision. Both guns will work in both sports if you've the incination to do so.

Be aware that current IDPA equipment rules limit you to a 4" barrel, so both choices will favor IDPA overall.

If you plan to shoot IDPA more than USPSA, go with the 686 SSR (or the aforementioned 4" k-frame). If you plan to shoot more USPSA that IDPA, go with the 4" 625. Niether of those 2 choices is optimal for USPSA. Either can be used in ICORE.

A 4" 625 is optimal for IDPA ESR, but you can shoot USPSA with it (as well as ICORE Limited). The PF for IDPA ESR is and USPSA Major 165000 - which is a stout load in a 4" revolver. A 125000 PF 45ACP load can be used in ICORE Limited and USPSA minor. A (very) few folks I know personally have tried using 45 AR brass and speedloaders in IDPA SSR, but my observation is that solution is definately sub-optimal and I have never see them use that arrangement twice.

The 686 SSR (as well as the k-frame option that was mentioned above) will do best in IDPA SSR at 105000 PF. You can also shoot it in USPSA minor at 125000 PF, ICORE Classic at 120000 PF, as well as IDPA ESR and USPSA Major at 165000 PF (Ouch!). You could do the same think right now with your 19, but is optimal for none of the sports listed. A plus is, you could also run the 2" 19 in IDPA BUG gun matches and ICORE Snubbie Special categories of local matches recognize that option. All of these can be done with 38 Special brass.

Good Luck and shoot well!

Craig

Edited April 14, 2011 by Bones

[skdmrklcy]

My main reason to not use the 14 or 19 for anything is that they are kind of family guns, and I would not want anything to happen to them. I guess that is not completly rational but it is my fear.

I am thinking IDPA more than anything just as I know a few more people that go to the match already plus never having owned one in the past I am not real big on a moon clip gun.

I will keep an eye for a old 4" k-frame but I always seem to find long barrels. A lot of good information though, thank you very much.

[Forrest Halley]

I totally understand the family gun thing. Keep them as they were passed down.

The K-frames are more desirable due to the shorter distance between cylinders...less place to bounce a reload off. You could have the cylinder cut for moonclips to make your life a little easier in USPSA...instead of picking up 36+ shells every field course. Play with Jetloaders or Comp 3's for IDPA and icore Loading for 125 PF will give you one load for three games.

Moonclips are not scary, they just require a small capital out lay in the beginning. They last for a long time if treated well.

[skdmrklcy]

Would a 66/19 or something like a 15 be a better choice? I will have to see what I can find I suppose. I am in no real hurry.

At least now I know what I should be looking for and what each will get me as far as what I can use and when.

I always try to move away from wheel guns but I just plain enjoy them more.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: How about a 625 with a 4" barrel? You can load to major and shoot IDPA ESR and USPSA both with moonclips. If you want to shoot IDPA SSR then use speedloaders and 45 auto rim brass. That is what I am going to do once I find a 4" 625. I am using my Carmonized 5" right now with the auto rim brass and speed loaders with 200 grain moly bullets. The last match I shot I was shooting 145PF and I will bring that down to 129PF or so for SSR. The 45 makes big holes that I can actually see I have been told by a couple of guys it will make weight if you use Hogue grips on the 4" 625. Thanks, Eric

[MrBorland]

As I expected, lots of good info here. But I'll throw in my $0.02 anyway:

- IME, it's not a given that you'd shoot a k-frame better than a 686. One can make a list of pros and cons for using a K- or L-frame, so in the end, it just depends on which one you shoot better. I had a 686, bought a 66 and found I shoot the 686 better, so that's what I'm sticking with.

- Speaking of the 686, I had a chance to shoot the SSR version. Nice gun, but it's nothing you can't get with a little tuning and customization of a standard 686. No matter which I bought, I'd end up getting it tuned a bit anyway, so I'd go for the standard 686. OTOH, if you don't want the hassle of having it worked on, the SSR doesn't seem a bad way to go. I do think the full underlug of the standard 686 helps tame muzzle flip a bit, though.

- IMO, shooting a revolver well in competition relies heavily on DA trigger control and reloads. I can heartily recommend spending portion of your range visit working on your DA target accuracy. I can also heartily recommend buying some compIII speedloaders or Jetloaders and holders (ReadyTac or North Mountain), and diligently working on your reloads at home during your dry fire practice.

- Your concerns about using your family 14 & 19 for IDPA are totally rational to me. Competition is hard on revolvers (I think Bones get a new one before each match ), particularly if you're dry firing & reloading your butt off at home.

If you want to shoot IDPA SSR then use speedloaders and 45 auto rim brass. That is what I am going to do once I find a 4" 625.

So SSR weight limit aside, what's the current ruling on .45AR in SSR? Last I understood, .45AR wasn't allowed in SSR, since the .45AR wasn't mentioned on the inclusive list (e.g. .38spl. .44spl).

Tom

[M1911]

I've never seen someone use a Model 15 at an IDPA match. You certainly could, but all I've seen are 16s, 66s, and 686s. I guess there aren't as many Model 15s around, or the folks that own them aren't into IDPA. The 19/66 has a full underlug, and is thus heavier, therefore has less recoil for the same load.

Within the variants of the 66, some folks prefer the 66-5, which has a frame mounted firing pin and a replaceable front sight. Others prefer the earlier versions with the hammer mounted firing pin, but those come with an integral front sight that can't be replaced without machining. Talk to Bones and Carmoney to get a better idea of the pros and cons.

Edited April 14, 2011 by M1911

[skdmrklcy]

I had not really factored the weight of the revolver. I generally prefer the lighter barrel 14, but I see how that is less desirable when making fast shots.

Model 15 was just what came to mind as I always wanted one but have never found a decent one in person. I think for a competition use I would have to go with something stainless, just for cleaning.

[M1911]

I think for a competition use I would have to go with something stainless, just for cleaning.

That doesn't really matter. My primary competition gun is my 66, but that is off for a trigger job. In the meantime, I'm using my model 19, and it works just as well. If I was faced with choosing between an equally good 19 and 66, I might take the 66, but either would do just fine.

[Bones]

At 105000 PF weight is not an issue. I have set up a few for friends and have been running a 15 lately in SSR with no issues. I may stick with it - they run well. They are also easier to find (and less expensive) than the K-frame magnums.

Craig

Edited April 15, 2011 by Bones

[Lunchboxx]

I've been toying with the idea of a revolver setup for USPSA as well, and I was just wondering one thing. I know I want to get a 625, but what is racking my brain is whether or not I should look for an older 5" model or if the newer JM 4" one would be a better fit for me. It sounds like the JM is tuned more towards competition shooting, but the extra inch on the barrel sounds like something I'd want.

Can anyone offer any insight on this?

[cyberiad]

The 625JM is "geared" toward competition but based on the little I know I wouldn't say it's tuned. The trigger is serrated, and it, along with the hammer are chromed, I think. The JM grips are included and the front sight is replaceable (without a pin). I don't know that anything is done to the action. You're probably better off buying a 5" if you think you will have it worked on anyway. I personally do not like serrated triggers and do not like JM grips either, YMMV, of course. The fact that the front sight is easily changed is nice and, to me, is the only advantage of a JM over other 625s.

[M1911]

I've been toying with the idea of a revolver setup for USPSA as well, and I was just wondering one thing. I know I want to get a 625, but what is racking my brain is whether or not I should look for an older 5" model or if the newer JM 4" one would be a better fit for me. It sounds like the JM is tuned more towards competition shooting, but the extra inch on the barrel sounds like something I'd want.

For USPSA, I'd go with a 5". If you want to shoot IDPA, then you need a 4".

[Lunchboxx]

5" it is then. My concern now is which model exactly? I recall reading that you want to avoid 625-2 and 625-somethingelse for whatever reason. Is that right, or would I be good enough with any old 625? Are the locks that big of a deal?

Thanks for the advice guys!

[MrBorland]

My concern now is which model exactly? I recall reading that you want to avoid 625-2 and 625-somethingelse for whatever reason. Is that right, or would I be good enough with any old 625? Are the locks that big of a deal?

Personally, I'd recommend any of the later ones with frame-mounted firing pins.

Don't sweat The Lock. IMO, there's more hysteria than fact on the internet about it. Besides, you can simply remove it if you want (legal in USPSA, but not in IDPA).

Tom

[skdmrklcy]

The lock does not really bother me at all, I don't like the look but what are you gonna do.

I used to have a 520 or something like that which was a new revolver with all the fancy hated features but it shot well and I liked it, sold it on a whim and wish I had it back.

[gr7070]

I've never seen someone use a Model 15 at an IDPA match. You certainly could, but all I've seen are 16s, 66s, and 686s. I guess there aren't as many Model 15s around, or the folks that own them aren't into IDPA. The 19/66 has a full underlug, and is thus heavier, therefore has less recoil for the same load.

I know a couple folks who shoot model 10s in IDPA; one shoots quite well. The 15 would be fine if desired.

FYI the 19/66 are half-lugs.

Edited April 16, 2011 by gr7070

[gp100man]

I shoot either a model 15 or a 66 in IDPA SSR. It just depends which one my hand grabs when I reach into the range bag. I had a buddy mill off the ramp sight on the 66 and put a fiber optic in. The 15 I left as is. Both shoot fine and I can shoot either one, fiber optic or integral ramped pretty much the same.

[TonyT]

Several years ago I picked up an older S&W 586 (the blued version of the 686). Great guns which can usually be obtained for very reasonable prices.

[taptap]

I’m sure there will be some disagreement but I can’t imagine that most people could be completive with a non-moon clip setup when competing against those that have it.

I am just getting started with my 4” 646 but I can see that I am going to really like this setup. I had a 610 and liked it but I felt it was unnecessarily heavy.

[skdmrklcy]

I was going to hold off on this for awhile, but my aunt has decided to give me a gun for Christmas.... Nice surprise. I am torn between a revolver or using the money toward a limited setup.

I just got my Production kit all complete so this is I am sure not the best idea but I am not going to turn down gun money. I mentioned saving it but that did not go over all that well.

[Bubber]

I’m sure there will be some disagreement but I can’t imagine that most people could be completive with a non-moon clip setup when competing against those that have it.

I am just getting started with my 4” 646 but I can see that I am going to really like this setup. I had a 610 and liked it but I felt it was unnecessarily heavy.

taptap, yep we got a disagreement, except that "most people" will have to work harder to be as competitive with speedloader guns. It is just a longer learning curve. And "IF" you are luckiy enough to get a lot of guys classified in the same class, moonclipped or not one will be competitive in that class. You don't have to have a moonclipped 45 to have fun and compete. I am trying my 45 at major to see if I can move up a little. So far it has been a wash for me, But I am still learning. later rdd