Paper vs Steel

[bbbean]

I'm focusing on my weakest areas prior to the SSN (basically, everything between "stand by" and "If you are finished.") One of the things I've been working on is shooting the standards. I have a12" piece of steel and a metric target at 50 yards, and my timer set up with a 5 second par time. I can consistently draw and hit the steel 4 times in 5 seconds, and hit it 5 times about half the time. Obviously, that needs work, but I can live it for now. When I shoot the paper, I put all 5 on the paper but scatter hits all the way from head shots to low D zone.

Obviously, I'm capable of putting 5 shots in a 12" circle, so I should be able to put 5 in the A zone on paper, but that just isn't happening.

Suggestions for the best way to address this?

[DMH]

Try slowfire at that range with dummy rounds mixed in. It helps me a lot when I do that.

[a.roberts]

Instead of focusing on the entire paper target, black out the C and D zones.

Focus on the A zone only.

You're hitting the steel because you know that if you miss the steel's "A" zone, you miss it entirely.

I hope that makes sense.

[Flexmoney]

Pick a target spot. (Aim small, hit small.)

See if you can reference an aiming point. Perhaps your bullet drops, and you can use neck hold (the line of the shoulder), for example...

Are you running click adjustable Bomars?

[bbbean]

Pick a target spot. (Aim small, hit small.)

See if you can reference an aiming point. Perhaps your bullet drops, and you can use neck hold (the line of the shoulder), for example...

Are you running click adjustable Bomars?

For the time being, I'm putting Brian's target stickers in the upper A and trying to train my eye to go there. That has helped tighten my hits at closer distances (5-25 yards), but a combination of poor vision and the fact that my 50 yard line leaves the target back lit in the late afternoon when I can shoot has made that a less than ideal solution. I hadn't thought of using neck hold for an aiming point - but it's worth a try. I do know that in addition to stringing shots up and down the midline, I am also getting a wider swath than the A zone. I'd sure rather have a low D hit than a miss that whizzed right past the B.

I'm reluctant to adjust my sights, as they're on at every other distance, and I'm not having any problem tagging the steel at the same distance. Something's going on with either my ability to pick a specific aiming point or my trigger technique on paper vs steel.

At any rate, I'm working on it in a regular basis, and am up for any suggestions you have to offer. I'll try the neck hold this afternoon and see how that works.

BB

[benos]

bbbean,

On the paper, are you finding the middle of the target between each shot, and then bringing your focus back to the front sight before you break the shot? Or staying with the front sight in recoil?

On a 12" steel plate, you will naturally realign the sights on the middle of the target without having to "find it," but on a larger paper target, that may not happen.

be

[bbbean]

Thanks, Brian. I think you hit the nail on the head.

When I was practicing today, I tried Flex's suggestion to use a shoulder/neck POA, and found that that narrowed my groups substantially. As you suggest, I think the issue is that since steel is a more difficult shot, I'm forcing myself to do everything right on each shot. Since the paper is a comparatively easier shot, its a lot easier to get sloppy on follow up shots (and I'm nowhere near good enough to point shoot at 50 yards).

Now if I can just get myself to do that every time...

[sdm74]

Do you encounter alot of shots at 50yds?

[Flexmoney]

I am thinking about designing some 50y shots into a stage...along with a shaky bridge. (Top Shot remake)

[bbbean]

I am thinking about designing some 50y shots into a stage...along with a shaky bridge. (Top Shot remake)

For some reason, i was remembering the standards at PASA starting at 50 yards, but when I looked in the 2010 match book, they were listed as 30 yards. At any rate, if I can shoot them at 50, 30 should be a breeze.

[benos]

I am thinking about designing some 50y shots into a stage...along with a shaky bridge. (Top Shot remake)

For some reason, i was remembering the standards at PASA starting at 50 yards, but when I looked in the 2010 match book, they were listed as 30 yards. At any rate, if I can shoot them at 50, 30 should be a breeze.

Absolutely!

But don't forget, there are no hard shots, and they are no easy shots.

be

[Singlestack]

I am thinking about designing some 50y shots into a stage...along with a shaky bridge. (Top Shot remake)

For some reason, i was remembering the standards at PASA starting at 50 yards, but when I looked in the 2010 match book, they were listed as 30 yards. At any rate, if I can shoot them at 50, 30 should be a breeze.

Absolutely!

But don't forget, there are no hard shots, and they are no easy shots.

be

Just small targets and bigger targets.

[Solidgun]

Is the steel target painted white. If so you could paint over it and measure accuracy as well.

[benos]

I am thinking about designing some 50y shots into a stage...along with a shaky bridge. (Top Shot remake)

For some reason, i was remembering the standards at PASA starting at 50 yards, but when I looked in the 2010 match book, they were listed as 30 yards. At any rate, if I can shoot them at 50, 30 should be a breeze.

Absolutely!

But don't forget, there are no hard shots, and they are no easy shots.

be

Just small targets and bigger targets.

Not even.

[Bsbllrooster]

Ever watched the movie, "The Patriot"? I think a line from it lends itself well here,

"Aim small miss small" I think your focus is probably much higher on the smaller steel target. If you had that same focus on precision when shooting the paper then your group would in all likelihood be similar to that of the steel plate.

Cheers.

[cyburg]

Ok now don't laugh until you have tried this.

One thing we use to do when training for HTTP operations is to shoot a lot with. Gas mask on. Even if you never plan on it or have never tried it give it a shot. What it does is makes you focus, because now your perifial vision is gone. Nothing to distract you. Basically the same thing people to to houses by putting blunders on them.

You can pick up a gas mask for about 20-40 dollars at a military surplus store.

Give it a try and see what you think...

[pjb45]

With my poor distance vision with my shooting eye, I use a different technique. A variation of what Angus told me a few months ago. I find if I align my rear sight even with the top edge (shoulders) of the target works better for me than finding the middle of the A zone sighting picture.

The other thing that tightened up the groups was putting more relaxation in the trigger finger.

Typically SSN has a standards; fifty yards, 4O yards with a barricade, strong, weak, freestyle or some type distance/time course.

BTW: I did the same thing on Saturday. I set up a standards; 50 yards course.

Good Luck at SSN.

BTW: with the number of courses and low round count I am spending time on draws and reloads.

[Solidgun]

I don't always aim for bullseye on paper targets....I pick a spot and make a few shots there to group it. For steel, it is hard to do this, but if you have white steel target and paint, you can do something similar.

[LocknLoad]

For myself, on the metric paper targets, last year I noticed that I was not getting good groups. I realized I wasn't taking the time to get a good sight picture like I was on the steel. In short, I was getting sloppy. So, during the off season, I made a different approach to practice. I took some metric targets and painted everything that wasn't in the A range black in order to trick my mind on focusing on A's and good shots. So far this season, it seems to have made a big difference in my shooting. Hope this helps someone.

David S.

[MQW]

Howdy,

have you thought about getting your hands on some of Scott Warren's training targets, that's one thing that would help, this training target "sticks" over a std Metric target and shows you a correct aiming point on the target; by shooting this way with enough repetitions, you then will start instinctively holding on the correct aiming point on the target, the cheap way to do this is paint a 3" or 4" black dot at the top of the A zone and shoot at it, you can also make a template from an IPSC target, either metric or clam-shell, so you can spray multiple 3" or 4" circles on a target and train on that.

Work on shooting controlled groups of five into the dots, take as much time as you need to get all five in the dots, once you are doing that consistently, work on decreasing your total time/splits but only when you can do it consistently out to 25 yds, work your way out in 5 yd increments; you may also need to make the dot bigger for anything past 15 yds. This is a good drill.

The common term "let your sights be your speedometer" really makes sense if you think it thru; you should only shoot as fast as you can see a clear, concise sight picture for long shots; you can possibly afford to not have a "perfect" sight picture when you are shooting close wide-open targets out to 10 yds, but anything partial with hard cover or No-Shoots or ANY Steel, needs a solid sight picture and trigger press to get good first round hits in the A zone.

There are some good precision/accuracy drills out there, Saul Kirsch has some great drills in his book, one great drill in putting an open IPSC Target at around 10 yds and then having a steel rack at about 20-25 yds; Draw and shoot the paper clean, as fast and accurately as you can, then do a clean, fast transition to the Steel, this will cause you to slow down just a tad on the trigger for the steel so you get the hit, missing on any steel is not good for the score at all. Hope this helps.

Regards,

Q

I'm focusing on my weakest areas prior to the SSN (basically, everything between "stand by" and "If you are finished.") One of the things I've been working on is shooting the standards. I have a12" piece of steel and a metric target at 50 yards, and my timer set up with a 5 second par time. I can consistently draw and hit the steel 4 times in 5 seconds, and hit it 5 times about half the time. Obviously, that needs work, but I can live it for now. When I shoot the paper, I put all 5 on the paper but scatter hits all the way from head shots to low D zone.

Obviously, I'm capable of putting 5 shots in a 12" circle, so I should be able to put 5 in the A zone on paper, but that just isn't happening.

Suggestions for the best way to address this?