SpookyPistolero Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Howdy folks! I just took a newly acquired G34 to the range today (which ran great overall). I went to the range for a couple of explicit purposes. One was to test the gun before a match tomorrow. The other was to work on putting controlled pairs down range, while focusing on the rise and fall of the front sight. My general practice distance is ten yards. At that distance, I can/did put a fairly quick group into a fist size. When I moved to trying to put some controlled pairs downrange, I initially got some fairly tight groups (inch or two apart). But I also noticed that as I continued to shoot pairs they trailed off in a fairly even line towards ~10 o'clock. That was problem one. What is that suggestive of? Not enough pressure on my grip, such that my strong hand is flexing and pushing the shot? The second problem was serendipitously discovered. I accidentally purchased a 10 round mag from a used mag selection at the shop. When using it for range practice (to spare my 'real' mags), I found it usually failed to lock the slide back on the last round. (This may be because I switched out the extended mag release for a plain/non-extended one from a 3-pin glock. It doesn't seem too strong in this two pin gun. But the full size mags lock it back..) Anyway, at the end of every string I'd have an empty chamber that would function as a dummy round. I noticed that I don't have a nice clean trigger pull and steady sight picture like when I'm dry firing. But it's not a straight 'drop' of the muzzle as I've usually seen with a flinch! Rather the back of the gun would drop a bit, and my hands/arms as a whole would drop a bit, pulling the pistol down below my line-of-sight. If the above is coherent enough, does that scream of any particular issue to anyone? On paper, my rounds don't present as a normal flinch would (I'm not pushing rounds low in general.) Is this just a horse of a different color, recoil anticipation by a control freak? To recap, problem 1 = when shooting pairs, they string left and slightly up. Problem 2 = (??) dropping pistol and dropping rear of pistol during shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amerflyer48 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Problem 1 : high and left 10:00 means you are "pushing" the gun in anticipation of recoil now with your prior pistol it may have cycled faster or have a quicker lock time.. hence timing you are firming up for impending recoil that arrives a little late so you track the second shot high and left try pushing your strong hand into your weak hand,.. it will track up and to the left as your strong wrist rolls back and support hands stays locked.. it is a subconscious thing,.. when I switch from my 10mm to my ..45 it take awhile to get "reacquainted" with the recoil I find that dry firing helps reprogram muscle memory to not anticipate with the pistol.. Problem 2 : lack of follow through you press the trigger your mind feels the shot break and "shuts off" possibly anticipating blast or shock of recoil usually hidden by recoil because pistols first move is up.. Here's my suggested drill and I do not guarantee it will work... load 2 rounds in all your mags except your 10 rounder and starting slow shoot pairs... as 1 controlled pair in 3 seconds... the 10 rounder will come as a surprise .... focus on fundamentals and following through bet its better within a box of 50 Good Luck... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpookyPistolero Posted April 6, 2011 Author Share Posted April 6, 2011 Problem 1 : high and left 10:00 means you are "pushing" the gun in anticipation of recoil now with your prior pistol it may have cycled faster or have a quicker lock time.. hence timing you are firming up for impending recoil that arrives a little late so you track the second shot high and left try pushing your strong hand into your weak hand,.. it will track up and to the left as your strong wrist rolls back and support hands stays locked.. it is a subconscious thing,.. when I switch from my 10mm to my ..45 it take awhile to get "reacquainted" with the recoil I find that dry firing helps reprogram muscle memory to not anticipate with the pistol.. Problem 2 : lack of follow through you press the trigger your mind feels the shot break and "shuts off" possibly anticipating blast or shock of recoil usually hidden by recoil because pistols first move is up.. Here's my suggested drill and I do not guarantee it will work... load 2 rounds in all your mags except your 10 rounder and starting slow shoot pairs... as 1 controlled pair in 3 seconds... the 10 rounder will come as a surprise .... focus on fundamentals and following through bet its better within a box of 50 Good Luck... John Thank you for the reply. I actually started doing something a bit similar at the end of my range session, by loading the ten rounder with two or three at a time, then running slow pairs. I think towards the end of that last box of ammo it was helping a little. I have more work to do for sure. This gun is a switch from a '17, which was a slight switch from a '19, so the change in recoil impulse and lockup time makes sense. I'm having a terribly difficult time finding my mental compromise between getting two rounds on the target quickly and just letting the gun do it's thing during recoil. When I truly try to just let it happen my recoil system (arms, shoulders, wrists, etc) seems to feel like I'm just not using a single muscle, just letting the gun flop on back. When I try to control it a bit I get this push. Can't find the middle ground yet. While >90% of these pairs were 'A' hits at ten yards, it just doesn't feel like I'm in total control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amerflyer48 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Sometimes control is letting go.....having faith in your setup gun/grip/stance etc. maybe just time and practice like your doing to develop confidence in relaxing and letting that feeling become "normal" maybe just a couple hundred rounds of "mindset" practice... yep a 19 to a 17 to a 34 getting longer as we go ..slide length/weight will play around with recoil impulses and your perception of it want to have some fun ? try your glock then borrow a .38Super compensated pistol... that will mess with your mind for awhile...hint :they don't like to be run like stock handguns sounds like you are onto something good though,.. practice and be mindful of your practice and you will have it in no time.... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Buy some dummy rounds and use them sporadically throught your range day training. In addition to getting malfunction drills down pat they will help you to see if you're still heeling the weapon. Leave Mr's Buck, Jerk, and Flinch home when you go to the range! (lol) Good luck. JK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stringcheese Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 When you are absolutely sure you have your flinch mastered. Go buy a 500 S&W and go shoot it offhand in an indoor range. Once you get over the flinch the X frame gave you, a full house automatic load starts to feel like a pop gun load. That is how i truly mastered my flinch. If you can't escape, go deeper! I just sold my Dan Wesson 375 SuperMag, if I was seeing tiger lillies I was in the X at 200. http://s154.photobucket.com/albums/s251/STRINGCHEESEY/375SM/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Gene Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) I would keep the trigger pinned through the first shot, don't release it until you are back on target the second time. You won't end up doing this at a match, but will help with follow through and getting back on target for you second controlled shot. I was doing the same thing when spending a weekend with a really good shooter (GM type) and he had me so this a while. It really helped shrink those pairs when I did speed up. WG Edited April 7, 2011 by Wild Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) When I moved to trying to put some controlled pairs downrange' date=' I initially got some fairly tight groups (inch or two apart). But I also noticed that as I continued to shoot pairs they trailed off in a fairly even line towards ~10 o'clock. That was problem one. What is that suggestive of? Not enough pressure on my grip, such that my strong hand is flexing and pushing the shot?[/quote']Surprised no one has touched this yet. Stop hurting yourself with bad practice. * DO Aim one shot at the target. Fire it. Now get your sight picture back and do it again. * DO NOT take one sight picture and rip two shots into the target, trying to find the correct timing and grip pressure to put the second one where the first one landed. "Controlled pairs" do not exist. Those of us ripping two shots into a target 0.10-0.15 seconds apart... are aiming both shots. Being able to do that comes with practice. Lots and lots of practice. Never fire a shot you don't have a sight picture for. Period. New guys constantly appear on the scene, hear the B-and-above shooters firing BANGBANG ... BANGBANG... and assume they have mastered the "double tap" or whatever phrase they choose to name it. Go ask one of them how they do it next time. You'll get "I shoot it, aim at it, and shoot it again" every single time. Always see your sights. Edited April 7, 2011 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpookyPistolero Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share Posted April 7, 2011 That's certainly a good point. I don't feel that I necessarily operate two shots on one sight picture, which is what I was trying to state with the word 'controlled'. But I'm still probably too far from getting a truly clean second sight picture. More to practice... Amazing how I can take something so simple and make it complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jar Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 As it was told to me, a 'controlled pair' means seeing the sights for both shots and a 'hammer' was two shots with one sight picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Problem number two might be you timing the gun. Nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 My general practice distance is ten yards. At that distance, I can/did put a fairly quick group into a fist size. When I moved to trying to put some controlled pairs downrange, I initially got some fairly tight groups (inch or two apart). But I also noticed that as I continued to shoot pairs they trailed off in a fairly even line towards ~10 o'clock. That was problem one. What is that suggestive of? Not enough pressure on my grip, such that my strong hand is flexing and pushing the shot? Your Natural Point of Aim (NPA) may be off. In slow fire, it is easy to simply muscle the gun onto target and align the sights. In rapid fire, you want to be able to allow the gun to return to your Point of Aim (POA). If your NPA and your POA are not the same...there will be a tendency to string shots (toward your NPA). If you can eliminate that, then it's simply an issue of disturbing the hold/sights...as you run the trigger. http://www.brianenos.com/pages/words.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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