Unique up on a TiteGroup?

[stringcheese]

I have had more than one person swear by VVT320 powder. Personally I refuse to pay double the price for a powder, especially when it is compared against proven performers like TiteGroup and Unique.

Of the two, TiteGroup and Unique, which is better in a 9mm? I will be shooting Berrys HBFP 124gr bullets and CCI primers, probably out of starline brass unless I can sneak into someones range. With their permission of course.

Which would you use?

[GSWEAR]

I haven't used any Unique in years so I can't give a great opinion one vs the other but I am guessing if your looking for 125,000 power factor 3.9 TG would be a good place to start.

I haven't loaded any 9mm with unique in almost 20 years. I shoot a lot of 124 MG's and I have Unique on hand I may have to load a few for the heck of it.

Greg

[gm iprod]

I reccomend either VV N320 or TG most often to my customers, depending on ther budget and preferences. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages.

But between TG and Unique I will always go for TG for just over minor loads. Unique is a lot slower and tends to leave a little more residue of unburnt powder than I prefer but will work wonderful in something that requires a little more thump. It is more suited to hot loads. TG and 320 are much more suited to lighter loads.

Now to get away from the original question. TG is a little sootier than N320, but that soot is easier to remove from the "glaze" that forms with N320. I have tried both in 38Special, 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP and 38Super the most. It is my go to powder for 38Super and 40. It meters brilliantly, not that 320 does not. it is more easily available and even down here, it is 60% of the price. When I travel to the US we have no shortage of TG available from three or four suppliers, whereas the 320 is difficult to get unless we pre order a lot, and of course pricing.

[CocoBolo]

Another vote for N320. And second place goes to Clays. Montana Gold or Zeros and not plated anything. You did hit on my favorite primer for open guns.

Edited April 2, 2011 by CocoBolo

[Chris Keen]

N320 costs more because you can't find a cleaner burning, even metering powder. TG & Unique are dirty dirty powders. Personally I don't like cleaning my gun as much as I like shooting it, so I use 320.

[gng4life]

Have you tried the N320 at all? Just buy a pound and compare it against TG or any others - I was amazed and now only use 320 for most of my loads. If you didn't go with that, TG would be the next choice between the two...

[stringcheese]

320 is about the same price for 4 pounds through midway as it is for 8 of either one of the others. I have not tried it as most of my reloading decisions are based as much on price as performance. I understand how important cleanliness is when shooting 250+ rounds in a day, and having each shot count. I thought that Titegroup, while a little dirty, didn't get sticky dirty. But I did not take good notes and it's been about 3 years. I used to shoot CAS, which was a different beast. But, I do remember red dot would dirty up one of my big Vaqueros so bad the cylinder wouldn't spin nice after about 40 rounds. After hearing your imput guys, I would like to try the 320, but maybe after I use up the tightgroup in my cabinet. If I'm not having problems I'll stick with it. 231 and WST also made the list but I have never used anything much else than Hodgden and IMR, other than a pound of reliant in a friends .375 H&H, so I do not know what to expect from Winchester. Unique is out, based on your feedback and I'll continue my research.

Our pistols, I bought one for me and my 61yo father, are to be delivered some time this week. Just bought a mixed bag of 2000 once fired 9mm brass from a range for $60. I am not looking forward to sorting through it!

On a lighter note, I'm up at 2:40am writing this, but had a full, and fun, day with my family. We took off from the house (north of Detroit) at 7am and headed to Toledo, OH for the "Weak Signals" R/C Model show. Afterward we stopped at Gibraltar Trade Center (flea market) for the Gun and Knife show, which was kinda disappointing. The 2000 pieces of brass for $60 was what I was looking for, and found it. If he had more I would've bought it! Anyway, we got home around 6 and slept until 9:30, then we had pizza. Now I can't sleep!

Thanks for the info guys!

[stringcheese]

Another vote for N320. And second place goes to Clays. Montana Gold or Zeros and not plated anything. You did hit on my favorite primer for open guns.

Is Clays load data in the Lyman or Sierra books? I do not recall offhand.

I'm not shooting open for a few more seasons. I use the CCI because they have never let me down and the APS strip goes right into my RCBS Pro2000.

Once again I'm faced with the performance vs. price question. At this point in the game, the Berry's bullets fit the cost analysis. Montana gold's look good and have good chatter, I haven't heard about Zero's until today, and I seriously considered Missouri Bullet's hardcast 125g SuperBall. At $55/M it is hard to beat for price. I'm going to look into the Zero bullets. I have read a number of your posts and you seem to have a good bead on things. Thanks for the input.

[Red Ryder]

I reccomend either VV N320 or TG most often to my customers, depending on ther budget and preferences. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages.

But between TG and Unique I will always go for TG for just over minor loads. Unique is a lot slower and tends to leave a little more residue of unburnt powder than I prefer but will work wonderful in something that requires a little more thump. It is more suited to hot loads. TG and 320 are much more suited to lighter loads.

Now to get away from the original question. TG is a little sootier than N320, but that soot is easier to remove from the "glaze" that forms with N320. I have tried both in 38Special, 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP and 38Super the most. It is my go to powder for 38Super and 40. It meters brilliantly, not that 320 does not. it is more easily available and even down here, it is 60% of the price. When I travel to the US we have no shortage of TG available from three or four suppliers, whereas the 320 is difficult to get unless we pre order a lot, and of course pricing.

What are the disadvantages of VV N320 besides price and availability? My load is 4.2 N320 1.155 0.376 crimp Federal SPP and R-P cases 130.4 PF in my XDM. I find it very clean and accurate for me.

[JerryShoots]

Given the two I choose TiteGroup. On my own bench neither but in the past Titegroup has served me well. I do like unique when I'm loading the big stuff though. It burns slower and makes a hard hitting round.

[stringcheese]

Where are you guys getting the powder information besides from experience?

Slower burn, faster burn, temperature sensitive, pressure spike prone????

I need to read what you guys have your noses in.

[8ring]

Attached is a link to a powder burn rate chart.

http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

This chart provides a general comparison of powder burn rate. However, certain powders may behave differently in different cartridges so always use verified load data in determining your powder charges.

Although some rifle powders are advertised as being insensitive to temperature, manufacturers say little about temperature sensitivity of their pistol and shotgun powders. Generally powders will burn more slowly at lower temperatures and some folks have had their loads go below the desired power factor at matches held in cold weather. There are also reports of some powders (Winchester Super Target in particular) that are reverse temperature sensitive and go below power factor as the temperatures go up.

It is difficult to determine whether a powder causes pressure spikes without complicated pressure measuring equipment. Sometimes flattened primers are a sign of excessive pressure, sometimes not. The best way to avoid pressure spikes is to never exceed published load data and pay very careful attention to overall length of your cartridges, especially small high pressure cartridges like the 9mm.

BTW, I've used both N-320 and Titegroup in 9mm. Both function well but I prefer N-320 because it is cleaner and burns much cooler. N-320 also performs very well with lead or moly-coated 9mm bullets. That said, Titegroup will provide good results with your Berry bullets.

[gohuskers]

If cost weren't a factor I would shoot 320 but since it is I shoot titegroup. I'm just a production guy with a glock 34, so as far as how dirty titegroup is it really doesn't seem to affect the glock's performance or require me to clean it anymore than my other guns. I would imagine that if I were shooting a high-dollar limited gun or single stack I might have a different opinion.

[BMartens]

I have been using 4.0 gr of Titegroup with the Berry 124 FP bullet for several years and it works just fine at 1.090 OAL and makes about 132-133 PF consistently. This continues to be my production match load but, I don't shoot much producion these days.

I can buy these locally at Cabela's and with my 10% military discount or one of the $20 off coupons they send in the mail they are quite reasonably priced for small quantity purchases. MG is cheaper in quantity but, why tie up resources with a 2-3 year supply of bullets since I only shoot about 1000 per year.

if I shot 4000+ a year then definitely go for MG or Zero. That is what I do for my open bullets.

Titegroup and your plated bullet selection will serve you quite well. And, as mentioned, try a pound of the VV and a few hundred jacketd bullets and make your own call on cost versus performance. A pound of powder and a couple hundred jacketed bullets won't break the bank and you will know exactly what works for you, in your guns and within your budget.

And you get to shoot more while trying different options.

[tac_driver]

Unique is good for SD high velocity loads because you won't be shooting 200+ in a session.

TiteGroup is good for gamer loads because it won't be as dirty as Unique with plated or jacketed bullets, however I wouldn't recommend it for lead loads burns too hot.

N320 is very pricey and hard to get.

I prefer WSF for a middle ground.

1. burns clean
   
2. not expensive
   
3. easy to get
   
4. a little goes a long way
   
5. easy to see a double charge
   
6. makes power factor easily
   
7. lead friendly burns cool
   
8. Extremely accurate
   
9. meters like water
   

only two drawback I found is data is scarce and reverse temperature sensitive.(faster in cooler weather)

Edited April 8, 2011 by tac_driver

[Carlos]

Unique is cleaner than Black Powder - but not by much. Tried it once. Smelly, smokey, filthy stuff that was temp sensitive.

Never ever used it again - it was THAT bad.

Invented over 100 years ago: they should call it "Antique" instead. Hard to believe, but they have actually come up with better powders over the last 100 years.

[OpenDot]

Unique Smokeless is like flaked fish food... clogs up the powder bar on my 550 and doesn't drop the same measure every time as well.

I used it once, still have 1/2 a bottle i'm going to use to burn the weeds in the back yard with.

I was using Titegroup for Limited Combat matches and steel matches...worked great with the 124 berry's and 147 zero's.

Edited April 14, 2011 by OpenDot

[gm iprod]

Rob,

Really between TG and 320 there is very little difference for normal light to midrange velocity in most of the sensible calibres. Performance is essentially the same with the same amount of powder using otherwise identical loading components.

When you decide to use a lot more powder and push the loads the 320 will give you a littel more warning befor doing something silly. TG is a bit sudden when you go outside the reccommended loads.

TG is slightly inverse temperature sensitive. 320 seems to be adverse temp sensittive, but only when, again, you are pushing the top end of the loads. Under normal load parameters they are both very temperature stable.

320 will when stored for a few years seem to drop off the power. We have had instances when older powder has been used that you sometimes need .2 to .4 grain more to acheieve the usual velocity. I stress the word sometimes! In all instances these were new unopened pots stored for a long period and stored correctly.

At smaller charges (3gr or less) 320 will sometimes not meter as well as TG, the kernels just like to hold up or just not flow in properly. To counter this I use the new style Dillon powder bar system with the double arms and still retain the spring to thump it home. Problem usually disappears.

[LPatterson]

I loaded some middle of the chart loads of VV N320, Tite Group, Unique, Bullseye, Silhoutte and Win 231 to look for accuracy and feel using 124 & 125 gr bullets. The bullets used were Zero 125 JSP, Berry 124 HP, Precision Delta 124 FMJ and Precision 124 HP. All loads tested exceeded Power Factor and a couple of combinations as high as 137.

Based on the accuracy and feel 1st place goes to N320 & the Zero 125 JSP; 2nd is a close tie with Tite Group, Bullseye & W231 and Berry & Precision Delta HP's. Based on feel I am eliminating the Unique and Silhoutte from further testing. Next will be a refinement by reducing selected loads by 1 & 2 tenths of a grain to get the PF around 132 with acceptable accuracy.

Sights are Dawson FO front and adjustable rear, range is 15 yards off a bench.

Gun used was a new G34 Gen 3 with about 500 rounds through it at the end of testing.