no make-up shots?

[ErikW]

How do you take a make-up shot without getting dinged with a procedural or FTDR penalty for "dumping rounds?"

Aren't the courses, with Limited Vickers excepted, supposed to allow you take as many shots as you need to hit the targets?

I generally call my shots and I will make up the D hits (er, -3 hits) and misses when I can. If that happens to put me at slide-lock, am I to be penalized for my attempting at a better score?

No? Then what's to prevent me from taking make-up shots everywhere before I want to do a slide-lock reload? What's the line between dumped shots and make-up shots, they must hit the zero ring? They must hit the target? Anything other than overtly cranking rounds into the berm?

[Scooter]

Three -0 hits will make it look suspicious.  If you have less than perfect shot placements, then it's a hard call to make.

[JZ]

This rule with out a doubt is the worst one in the book!

It should be removed!

In my opinion it is unenforceable.

A Vickers course of fire allows the shooter to take as many shots on a target as they think they need! How does the SO know how many rounds you need? Your shooting the gun not the SO!

At major matches I have seen Master class shooters go to slide lock quicker by shooting extra rounds at targets 5 feet away and not get a procedural.

Boning a shooter for this is only going to make them mad and maybe go to another shooting sport.

[Mark Perez]

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Quote: from Erik Warren on 4:54 pm on Mar. 11, 2002

1]How do you take a make-up shot without getting dinged with a procedural or FTDR penalty for "dumping rounds?"

2]Aren't the courses, with Limited Vickers excepted, supposed to allow you take as many shots as you need to hit the targets?

3] I generally call my shots and I will make up the D hits (er, -3 hits) and misses when I can. If that happens to put me at slide-lock, am I to be penalized for my attempting at a better score?

No?4] Then what's to prevent me from taking make-up shots everywhere before I want to do a slide-lock reload? What's the line between dumped shots and make-up shots, they must hit the zero ring? They must hit the target? Anything other than overtly cranking rounds into the berm?

---

1.Aim gun,press trigger.

2.Yes.

3.No- but keep in mind that extra make-up shots WILL add time to your overall.Will taking the extra time /shot make up for -3 down??

I think after a point , make-up shots can work against you rather than for you , ie,  swinging targets.

4. There isn't a defined standard as far as I can tell.

Unless the stage description specifies WHAT to shoot from WHERE and how many-but that would make it a limited vickers...

The thing about IDPA is doing exactly what the course scenario describes faster and more accurately than the other guy.

[PaulW]

Interesting question Erik.  I just shot the Floria State IDPA match and my last stage went;

Starting at point A, draw fire two shots at first threat target, move along and while moving engae two more threat targets, move to barrel for cover and engage two more treat targets.  Total of 10 rounds.  I asked the SO if I could reload on the move and he said yes, as long as it was from slide lock.  That in itself confussed the hell out of me, why would I want to reload from slide lock unless I had to?  The only cover was the barrel.  So what did I do, I shot each threat with 3 rounds each, reloaded on the move from slide lock and engaged the last two threat targets.  The So had no problem with that at all.

My personal feelings are that IDPA is just a different game.  Most of the stages shot were around 18 rounds, that means two reloads for the CDP group, which is what I shot.  No problem, just had to pick the place to reload at.  To me if IDPA wanted to be super realistic they would not tell you the round count and all stages would be a surprise type stage.

[ErikW]

Scooter, it wouldn't be much trouble for me to dump a quick non-zero hit after shooting two zeros.

Mark, inside 20 yards any make-up shot I need is going to take a half-second or less. That's a wash making up a -1 but works out in my favor making up a -3. Not only that, but taking an extra quarter to half second to shoot my gun dry saves me a full second or more by doing a speed reload instead of a retention reload.

[PaulW]

You are so right Erik.  The rules almost force you to "game" it.  I know die hard IDPAers hate that word but the truth of the matter is that their rules force you to.

[idpassr]

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Quote: from Erik Warren on 4:54 pm on Mar. 11, 2002[

No? Then what's to prevent me from taking make-up shots everywhere before I want to do a slide-lock reload? What's the line between dumped shots and make-up shots, they must hit the zero ring? They must hit the target? Anything other than overtly cranking rounds into the berm?

---

Well, the way most of the stages are laid out, if you load with an even number of rounds in your pistol, you will run dry after a target if you shoot everything 2x.

Another way to keep from getting dinged for throwing rounds is to design stages the way you want them.  Or to shoot a revolver.  Or to slow down just enough to make your shots in the -0 or -1 zones.

Lots of ways to avoid getting a "gamer" label in IDPA.  One of the best is to get involved.

Shooting IDPA Revolver since 1998

George Bagley

Austin, TX

[midvalleyshooter]

It depends Erik Each stage, shooter and situation would be different. Also how good an actor are you? If you make it a habit to dump rounds to gain a competetive advantage most RO's would just penalize you often enough so it would be sort of tiring.......yawn

The RO knows,

Keith

(Edited by midvalleyshooter at 12:51 am on Mar. 14, 2002)

[Mark Perez]

Stage designers can include the following in the course design:

" Score best 2  [or x number] hits per target " .

That gives the competitor more options as to how many rounds to engage per target . Also gets away from the double tap mantra .

[Steve Moneypenny]

someone said load an even number of rounds.... do that in SSP, or with an ESP gun (bhp, CZ etc that holds 11 rounds) or a 1911 with an 8 round mag and you are guilty of FTDR. most stages require gun to be loaded to IDPA maximum.

i think everyone that plays IDPA is a gamer... my definition of gamer being "one who plays a game"

as for making up shots a -1 is .5 seconds that better be one quick make up shot or it will cost you time. a -3 being 1.5 seconds.... plenty of time to save time on your score with that make up shot.

also, say you dump one round somewhere so you don't have to change mags in the middle of a "controlled pair" figure time saved to be just about a second, maybe more for my self.

guns that top off with an even number of rounds are a definite advantage in this sport.

[Duane Thomas]

Well, technically, doing the "three shots on every target so I can do a slide lock reload" is illegal. If I were the SO I would have had a problem with it. That's exactly what that rule is intended to prevent. The Rule Book doesn't force us to game it. We choose to - and if we choose to, and we get an SO who takes the Rule Book seriously, we better be ready to take our medicine.

[Jake Di Vita]

As for dumping rounds down range to be able to do a slide-lock reload instead of a retention reload, personally, the time difference between the both is not much at all for me, so it would be kind of a wash to do so.  Most of the time I try to avoid making up shots unless I have a shot in the -3 zone.  The advice I give to shooters and use myself is to just shoot and forget it.

[Steve Moneypenny]

TIS,mind if i ask your classification? and how many masters do you have to shoot against?

my point is, take a look at nationals standings in 2001 pretty close..... next is well that doesn't happen at a club match.

http://www.ovis.net/~jfulks/3-02.htm

take a look at SSP division. you can break things down to hundreths of a second. it does make a difference.

its not all about who does the most right, its about who makes the LEAST mistakes. and there is a bigger fudge factor in a tac/retention reload than there is a slide lock.

[j1b]

In some ways I wish our shooting sports were like Golf.

A sport of integrity demands rules and self regulation. If all of us knew that noone would cheat or game - then this post would have never been made.

I shoot IDPA now - and to be frank I play strictly by the books. If I lose as a result - so be it. But the only time I take a make-up shot is when I think I need it.

JB

[Jake Di Vita]

Smoney,

Currently I am classified master in SSP.

[Duane Thomas]

"In some ways I wish our shooting sports were like Golf. A sport of integrity demands rules and self regulation. If all of us knew that no one would cheat or game - then this post would have never been made.

I shoot IDPA now - and to be frank I play strictly by the books. If I lose as a result - so be it. But the only time I take a make-up shot is when I think I need it."

Here, here! Some people say "gamer" like it's synonomous with "cheater." It's not. A good gamer takes every possible advantage....within the rules, not outside.

[DogmaDog]

Paul W,

One thing you can do is start to do a tactical reload on the move...hold the gun strong hand only and retrieve a fresh magazine...then you're ready to swap mags as soon as you reach cover.  

As soon as you finish engaging targets, but you're still on the move, don't wait to start the tac reload until you reach cover...there's no rule that says you have to maintain 2 hands on the gun, afterall!

Semper Fi,

DogmaDog

[MSM]

OK, I have a question for you on that one. (Not to open a can of worms of course) but, the rule book states that on a tactical reload,

"To be in the “spirit” of the stage, the shooter must retain the magazine in one of the following ways PRIOR to the firing of the first shot after a tactical load: pants pocket, vest pocket, jacket pocket, waistband or magazine pouch. Using specially designed pockets, shirt pockets or holding the magazine in the hand or teeth is NOT permitted. "  Then if this is the case after a reload, then why would you be permitted to hold a fresh magazine in hand before a reload while engaging targets?  

[Duane Thomas]

What he's talking about is leaving cover to move to another position as you're stashing the old mag, not engaging targets as you're stashing the old mag.

[DogmaDog]

What Duane said is one possibility.  I'll illustrate with an example from my last match:

Stage was:  begin at position 1, draw and engage 2 mini-poppers at about 12 yards while moving to the right to position 2 behind a barrel.  Perform a tac reload and engage T-3 and T-4 with 2 rounds each, strong hand only.

So as soon as I've knocked down the 2nd popper, and before I've reached cover, I'm reaching for my new magazine, and pulling it out.  By the time I get crouched behind cover, I have the mag in position to eject the old one, and do the swap.  

Here's where I realized that it's hard to stash a magazine in your front pocket while you are kneeling .  And that got me flustered enough to engage T-3 with 2 hands on the gun, getting a procedural and wiping out any advantage I gained by getting the reload started early.  

There, real-world practical application!  

Semper Fi,

DogmaDog

[Duane Thomas]

If I'm standing I like stuffing the old mag into my waistband. It's a much larger and faster-to-hit target than any pocket. Just shove the mag into your belly and push straight down. Obviously this is only going to work if your belly is fairly flat. When kneeling the best place to store the old mag (assuming a right-handed shooter) is in the left rear pants pocket.