Steel Challenge & PRoduction guns ...

[Stefano]

Sorry, this probably will sound to many of you as a stupid question but I am just curious to know an answer ...

I've done a translation of the SCSA Rulebook, but I haven't found nothing in it referring to Production guns:

(under the "main event" I notice only these categories:

OPEN REVOLVER, IRON SIGHT REVOLVER, USPSA LIMITED, plus 3 IDPA categories, but nothing about PD guns).

Please, can anybody explain to me - if recognized - what are the SCSA prescriptions for this category ?

Thanks in advance

Stefano

[jkrispies]

What are the "3 IDPA categories" again? I only shoot CDP so I don't pay much attention to anything else... but I'm guessing that Production is one of those categories, just possibly under a different name.

[Stefano]

MAIN EVENT:

Open to any pistol firing 9mm/.38 Special or larger ammunition (see “ammunition”

above). This event has multiple categories as follows.

"OPEN REVOLVER”

“IRON SIGHT REVOLVER”

"WOMEN’S CATEGORY"

"USPSA LIMITED"

Any USPSA-legal Limited Division pistol. For Steel Challenge, this division also

includes any iron-sighted pistol without compensator, ports, or optical sight. Failure to

meet Limited rules and criteria shall result in disqualification from Limited award

consideration.

"IDPA CUSTOM DEFENSIVE PISTOL”

“Handguns permitted for CUSTOM DEFENSIVE PISTOL must be .45 ACP

caliber...”

"IDPA STOCK SERVICE PISTOL”

Handguns permitted for STOCK SERVICE PISTOL must conform to the requirements

of IDPA Stock Service Pistol (SSP).

“Handguns permitted for STOCK SERVICE PISTOL must be Double Action,

Double Action ONLY or Safe Action and be of 9mm or larger caliber...”

"IDPA ENHANCED SERVICE PISTOL”

Handguns permitted for ENHANCED SERVICE PISTOL must conform to the

requirements of IDPA Enhanced Service Pistol (ESP).

“Handguns permitted for ENHANCED SERVICE PISTOL must be Single Action or

selective SA/DA and be of 9mm, .38 super, or 40 S&W...”

IMPORTANT! The IDPA categories shall be governed by IDPA rules for basic firearm

and holster description and rule interpretation. Failure to meet IDPA rules and criteria

shall result in disqualification from IDPA award consideration. The competitor would

still be eligible to compete in the overall event.

"COWBOY SINGLE ACTION”

Well, in what category must to compete a stock Production double-action gun (like CZ Shadow and/or many others) ??

Edited February 6, 2011 by Stefano

[jkrispies]

A CZ would most likely be an ESP since it fires single action after the first double action pull. If the gun is double action only, even after the first firing, then stock service. Really what you need to do is refer to the IDPA rulebook at http://www.idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf because other factors might apply to the particular gun.

[gng4life]

Right, officially, Production is not recognized in WSSC catagories. Also remember the rulebook is still in draft edition, no final edition to my knowledge. I've been asking but nothing final/official yet.

Yes, for the ESP, it's directly from the IDPA rulebook, nothing special

[Stefano]

Right, officially, Production is not recognized in WSSC catagories. Also remember the rulebook is still in draft edition, no final edition to my knowledge. I've been asking but nothing final/official yet.

Yes, for the ESP, it's directly from the IDPA rulebook, nothing special

Yes, "provisional" is the first thing I've noticed ...

(Provisional Rules, Rev. Feb. 17, 2009).

Thanks for your confirmation:

me too I've thinked something similar when - days ago - I've asked the same thing with an e-mail to SCSA (with no reply at the moment ...).

My interest rises to the fact that here, in Italy, we would like to start running a SC championship (under the official SCSA rules) but we have to consider the "pruduction-guns" issue, due to the fact that we have a bunch of shooters with PD guns.

In my mind, te only answer to this "bug" in the SCSA rulebook is that - probably - in the USA the typical SC shooter is NOT running the match with a production gun (apart from Glock Jockers ...).

Guys, any more input on this argument will be welcomed:

as sayied, we would like to start playing this interesting game ...

[photoracer]

Production is not recognized as a seperate class in SC, but falls under the USPSA Limited category, i.e. all other guns with no mods on the banned list.

[1fng]

I don't mean to stir any controversy, but here are BJ Norris' scores from the 2010 Steel Challenge World Championships 'production' division. He won production in 2010

Place Name Comp SCSA Division Aggregate Total

14 BJ Norris 167 1464 PROD 93.56 93.56

Rob Latham, Mike Seeklander, Julie Golob, Randi Rodgers, and others have also posted production scores from the 2010 worlds in Piru.

I looked in the rules, and also in the policies manual from the Steel Challenge website, and was unable to find anything on produciton either. The division definitely exists, though.

Here's the link I'm referencing: http://steelchallenge.com/match-results/?action=match&indx=199

I'd have to imagine that the USPSA rules for production division would apply, listed in the 2009 'provisional' SCSA rules or not...

[gng4life]

I don't mean to stir any controversy, but here are BJ Norris' scores from the 2010 Steel Challenge World Championships 'production' division. He won production in 2010

Place Name Comp SCSA Division Aggregate Total

14 BJ Norris 167 1464 PROD 93.56 93.56

Rob Latham, Mike Seeklander, Julie Golob, Randi Rodgers, and others have also posted production scores from the 2010 worlds in Piru.

I looked in the rules, and also in the policies manual from the Steel Challenge website, and was unable to find anything on produciton either. The division definitely exists, though.

Here's the link I'm referencing: http://steelchalleng...=match&indx=199

I'd have to imagine that the USPSA rules for production division would apply, listed in the 2009 'provisional' SCSA rules or not...

Yeah, I forgot about that. This is whats confusing, they have that division at the WSSC but in the rulebook, there is no mention of it. I started our Steel matches with a Production division since most of our shooters are the IPSC type and know the rules of that division. However, I looked in the rulebook for a listing on divisions, there is nothing there.

I wish they would do away with the IDPA divisions and just use the ones we have in USPSA but I'm sure IDPA shooters wish the opposite. Since USPSA owns SCSA, it would make more sense to keep those divisions for simplicity sake. I think the only reason they put them in there is to appeal to the other shooting disciplines.

Either way, in my local matches, I do not use the IDPA divisions, only the USPSA ones until there is something official put out.

Thanks for bring that up...

[Stefano]

Guys,

at last my interest about the "PD-bug" in SC Rulebook caused something ...

I've asked about this issue to Kimberley Williams (SCSA Operation Manager), and here's her kind response:

Hi Stefano,

Production is an allowed division in the SCSA. We are currently working on a final copy of the rulebook and it will be available soon. It will outline all the details regarding Production division.

(in the meantime) you can pretty much just use the USPSA Production list as a guide as it will be the same for SCSA. Hope that helps! : )

Thanks!

Thank you so much to you Kim (and to SCSA) for caring so quickly and effectively to a question sent from overseas ...

[itchy]

Production became official at the 2009 World shoot in Piru. Springfield sponsored it, so if you find a rulebook after June 2009, it is a category. The difference between Production and Limited is the gun, holster type and placement. Same with IDPA. Production must comply with all USPSA production rules, as does IDPA.

One another note, I'm hearing that that USPSA may do away with IDPA categories soon. I generally shoot IDPA and Iron Sight Revolver. I hope USPSA realizes that there were roughly 40 entries in IDPA last year, with a total of 210 entries.

Seiichi

[NOSAJ19]

Here in Australia, we run Steel Challenge base on IPSC Divisions, including Open Semi, Open Revolver, Metallic Semi, Metallic Revolver & Production Division.

[Ahab]

Actually, they could toss the IDPA divisions entirely at Steel Challenge - the SSP guys would go to Production, the ESP guys would go to Limited, and the CDP guys would go to Single Stack. They would have to limit Single Stack to .45 ACP though, because otherwise you'd have guys running .38 Super and 9mm and just beating the .45 guys to death.