meangreen75 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I would also like to know if this applies to the S&W MP. I just got a MP 9 Pro and it groups 6" low @ 15 yds. It would be nice to just put an adjustable Bomar on rather than work through all the different sized front sights. D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911vm Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I would also like to know if this applies to the S&W MP. I just got a MP 9 Pro and it groups 6" low @ 15 yds. It would be nice to just put an adjustable Bomar on rather than work through all the different sized front sights. D bomarBomar are definitely illegal they require slide modification . that is not allowed in the production Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmbeckwith Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I have the same problem with the M&P Pro 9mm. This firearm has never been issued with adjustable sights in the US! I was told this by a Pretty (double meaning) good shooter from S & W. I am hoping that in the near future they will offer this with Novak adjustable sights. I have a set and they look almost the same as the fixed. So keep your fingers crossed that they change this, it is a very accurate gun with a great trigger pull right out of the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meangreen75 Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I'm hearing from a friend that he was given the OK by the NRA to put a Novak on his. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I'm hearing from a friend that he was given the OK by the NRA to put a Novak on his. Any thoughts? Fixed Novak or adjustable. Fixed should be no problem. Adjustable I don't see how they can allow it unless they issue another Bianchi only variance like they did with aftermarket barrels last year. I don't have a problem with them doing that since I don't think it's fair (the adjustable sights) to Smith and other manufacturers that don't offer adjustable sights on their duty guns. Heck the only reason Glock did was to allow importation into the country. I just hope if they're gonna do it they put the word out sooner rather than a month before the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meangreen75 Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I'm hearing from a friend that he was given the OK by the NRA to put a Novak on his. Any thoughts? Fixed Novak or adjustable. Fixed should be no problem. Adjustable I don't see how they can allow it unless they issue another Bianchi only variance like they did with aftermarket barrels last year. I don't have a problem with them doing that since I don't think it's fair (the adjustable sights) to Smith and other manufacturers that don't offer adjustable sights on their duty guns. Heck the only reason Glock did was to allow importation into the country. I just hope if they're gonna do it they put the word out sooner rather than a month before the match. Adjustable. I'm not going to bother with putting one on my M&P. I went out today and took a little off of the front sight so it would hit POA at 25 yards. Better safe than sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) Little rule about Bianchi. If a firearm in that configuration has been used under the same rules at a Bianchi Cup then another firearm built to the same specs is legal. Because it was not disqualified means they can't disqualify you. This was confirmed in 2003 when TGO and others were asked to put their firearms back into "stock" configuration, that was challenged they were allowed to refit the guns as per previous years. In 2006 or 7 when so someone pushed the metallic rules a little hard and caused a little stir over where the front sight was actually located. UNLESS, the rules have been changed and specifically outlaw that item then you are out. They must however give adequate ruling on equipment BEFORE the shooter arives at the match with that equipment. I suggest you call Mr Orsinger and ask him to get you a referee that will confirm or otherwise the legallity of your handgun. Send pictures and any supporting evidence promptly. Edited March 12, 2011 by gm iprod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meangreen75 Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Just to clarify. I have not made any alterations to MY gun. I have stock sights on my pistol and I have taken the front sight down to where it now shoots POA/POI @ 25 yards. If that is considered altering the weapon then I guess I'm screwed but the gun shot 6" low out of the box. The sights are not adjustable but I had to get it to shoot POA or it's of no value to me. My friend has been in contact with the NRA and I'm assuming that he is going with what they told him and will put the rear adjustable on. His gun shot 7" low @ 25 out of the box. Personally I think if any pistol in the Prod. class is allowed to have a rear adjustable then all pistols in the class should be allowed to have one. If you are talking about a certain class then the same rule should apply to ALL pistols in that class. It should not be broken down by what one manufacture puts on their guns and one that doesn't. I'm not going to make a big deal about this since it usually only takes one person to end up messing things up for everyone. It would be nice to throw that rear on my gun and KNOW that I can get it shoot POA/POI at the 25 and the 50 but I won't chance paying all the $ for flights, reg, rental car, and hotel to just get there and find out the gun I've been practicing with is disqualified. Just my $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 meangreen, WHat you have done is allowed in NRA AP Prod. You may make alterations to the sights. You may not make external alterations to the slide for want of a better way of describing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911vm Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 So could we please have an official ruling. I need to send the gun to the gunsmith for some work and need to tell him which sights to put on. Thank-you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Kyle's gun had a Dawson adjustable rear, if I remember it correctly when I looked at it.... DougC Looking at the picture of Kyle's gun in the Bianchi Info Guide it looks like a Dawson Fixed. Blends over the rear of the slide a bit and not as sharp looking as the Dawson Adj. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911vm Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 I think the bottom line on all the debates is if the gun was available from the manufacturer (NOT CUSTOM SHOP) with adjustable sights you are good. My XD did not my MP did not Glock yes. I know for effect that there are several competitors that are going to the match with adjustable sights and are going to argue that custom shop is a manufacturer, it may work for them, but I am not taking my chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 This whole discussion shows something about NRA Action that has never changed and adding Production just made worse. You can never be absolutely positive about gun rules and they may be changed or ruled differently at the match. Sad, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSAJ19 Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Should be as per USPSA PD rules, including no aftermarket barrels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allgoodhits Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Just this week a former BC competitor commented about he had installed an adjustab;e sight on his M&P. I sent him Rule 3.2.1 (d) where it clearly prohibits this (M&P never offereed with adj sights). He claims he checked with NRA. Bottom line is went went back and forth on this. To my knowledge Production 3.2.1 (d) is clear and S&W has never offered an adj sight on that platform. Like has been mentioned before, the NRA "may" make a Bianchi exception, but if they do, then make evary effort to notify competitors now. It is not fair if some get the OK, and others who follow the written rules could have had adj but they didn't get the nonexisting MEMO allowing. I do n ot proclaim to have the absolute answer, so if one wanders outsight the written rules, you take on some risk by the guys in the striped shirts at the table. See all in few weeks, MJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSAJ19 Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 So let me get this straight. Having read & understood the current rule book. Built their equipment to comply & trained their techniques.International competitors from around the world converge on the US to shoot Bianchi Cup, & they make up the rules to suit themselves on the day? Today, you cant hold you gun against a barricade (but the rules say we can)? Today you can have aftermarket barrels in PD guns (but the rules say we can't)? Today, you can have adjustable rear sights on any PD gun, (but the rules state only those manufactured with adjustables may use them). Rules are the rules? Or are they just a guideline, open to interpretation? Crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRAActionPistol Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Should be as per USPSA PD rules, including no aftermarket barrels. If you want to compete in USPSA Events, use those rules, NRA ACTION PISTOL, does NOT and will NOT use someone else's rules. NRA Pistol Department Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRAActionPistol Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 So let me get this straight. Having read & understood the current rule book. Built their equipment to comply & trained their techniques.International competitors from around the world converge on the US to shoot Bianchi Cup, & they make up the rules to suit themselves on the day? Today, you cant hold you gun against a barricade (but the rules say we can)? Today you can have aftermarket barrels in PD guns (but the rules say we can't)? Today, you can have adjustable rear sights on any PD gun, (but the rules state only those manufactured with adjustables may use them). Rules are the rules? Or are they just a guideline, open to interpretation? Crap. Read the NRA Action Pistol Rulebook! NRA Pistol Dept Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotwang Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 (edited) Today you can have aftermarket barrels in PD guns (but the rules say we can't)? Today, you can have adjustable rear sights on any PD gun, (but the rules state only those manufactured with adjustables may use them). Rules are the rules? Or are they just a guideline, open to interpretation? Crap. http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/Action/act-book.pdf (d) Only open sights may be used. The front sight must be a non-adjustable post sight. The rear sight may be adjustable if the firearm was originally manufactured with an adjustable sight. Sights may be replaced but they must use the original dovetail cuts and must retain the original configuration of the firearm. Fiber optic sights are permitted. (e) Barrels may be replaced with original factory or after market barrels with the same configuration and caliber of the original barrel. Modifications to the slide or frame to facilitate the use of the aftermarket barrel are not permitted The following firearm modifications are prohibited: A - Single action only firearms B - Custom -shop firearms. C - Changes in the original factory sight configuration of the firearm are prohibited, front adjustable sights. D - Peep, ghost, optical, electronic, Bo-Mar and Aristocrat type sights. (edited so A,B,C,D didn't look like smiley faces after a copy and paste. Edited April 23, 2011 by Rotwang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Della Bella Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Im going to play devils advocate and say that even fixed blade sights are adjustable ( for windage ). For the people shooting a M&P, all the ones I have tried shoot low, If its not legal for an ajustable sight I would put the dawson adjustable sight in it and set my sights and weld it so it cant move. If I end up shooting production that is what I will do. Just some thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 There I was thinking that I was the only ratbag who thought of that. Once adjusted and "fixed" so that it will no longer move the sight is therefore fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSAJ19 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Should be as per USPSA PD rules, including no aftermarket barrels. If you want to compete in USPSA Events, use those rules, NRA ACTION PISTOL, does NOT and will NOT use someone else's rules. NRA Pistol Department My suggestion here was based on others having resolved the blurred lines in the rules & attempting to keep the Division pure. Does a modification, maintain the feel of the division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSAJ19 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 My rule book is dated January 01, 2004. I guess I'd best chase the newer 2011 version. Whilst my post may have been confronting, I appreciate the responses & the updated information. Cheers, Ando. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSAJ19 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 (edited) Im going to play devils advocate and say that even fixed blade sights are adjustable ( for windage ). For the people shooting a M&P, all the ones I have tried shoot low, If its not legal for an ajustable sight I would put the dawson adjustable sight in it and set my sights and weld it so it cant move. If I end up shooting production that is what I will do. Just some thoughts. I like how you think. Drift adjustment is still an adjustment, hence I belive an aftermarket adjustable rear sight is an option. IMO, an adjustable rear sight (elevation & windage) offers no advantage over a fixed sight once the gun is sighted in correctly. Provided you do not modify the slide to accept these aftermarket sights, you should be good to go. Now to buy a Production Division legal holster. Cheers, Ando. Edited April 25, 2011 by NOSAJ19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meangreen75 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I know that I'm new to this but it seems that if a any competitor is able to use an item on his gun then that same item should be allowed for any other competitor regardless of Brand name. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. I don't see the big deal with rear adjustable sights for production anyways. Are there really any production shooters that are constantly changing their adjustable sights at every yard line? I am just looking for a way to get my M&P to shoot dead on at the 25. I'll adjust myself around the gun after that. Meanie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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