Glock with Bo-Mar sight

[Alan550]

I know that I'm new to this but it seems that if a any competitor is able to use an item on his gun then that same item should be allowed for any other competitor regardless of Brand name.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I don't see the big deal with rear adjustable sights for production anyways. Are there really any production shooters that are constantly changing their adjustable sights at every yard line? I am just looking for a way to get my M&P to shoot dead on at the 25. I'll adjust myself around the gun after that.

Meanie

There are shooters who adjust the sights at each distance after the 10-15 yd lines, especially on the 50 yd practical.

Alan~^~

[Rotwang]

I don't see the big deal with rear adjustable sights for production anyways. Are there really any production shooters that are constantly changing their adjustable sights at every yard line? I am just looking for a way to get my M&P to shoot dead on at the 25. I'll adjust myself around the gun after that.

Getting it shoot dead on would be a good reason to have adjustable sights. And if you end up using different weight bullets for another match they'd come in real handy.

[gm iprod]

I think the NRA were trying to really have a proper Production Class, but they mistakenly thought we were thinking along the same lines and had the same intentions as they do.

Why it came about is why they need to think it through a little more.

Openis an equipment race, Metallic sight has become an equipment race, and now Production has become an equipment race. Unfortunately just like IPSC Production and USPSA Production. It is a competition and we are competitive.

I had an excellent discussion with an EX ISSF (Olympic type) Pistol Referee. Their telephone directory sized rule book came about because somewhere, someone pushed it too far. I used the words "cheated" he was more diplomatic. But essentially I was right. For this Bianchi we have to pretty much carry on using the rules we have. I think this is the third run for PRoduction so it is all still somewhat in a state of flux, (I had a similar word in mind but not here) they are still working on the rules.

If you are not happy with the rules as we are about to shoot them, follow the rules and then let them know after the match, break the rules and they will not listen to you. I know I would use a similar word to flux if you broke the rules and then tried to change the rules to suit.

BTW, I think being able to use common non factory adjustable sights for your Production Gun should be allowed. It is something that is done to nearly every handgun sooner or later, otherwise only those handguns that are sent from the factory with adjustable sights will be used for AP and everything else will fall out of favour and the makers of those guns will NOT support the match.

Edited April 28, 2011 by gm iprod

[Jay Della Bella]

GM IPROD

I agree with you that all the classes at Bianchi will be an equipment race and I think that is what its supposed to be. We as competitors want our guns to shoot the best that they can no matter what class we shoot in. The word "cheating" is kind of a strong word in the shooting sports and I dont think any of us that invest so much time and money in these games would intentionally cheat. We as shooters are always trying to figure out how to make our guns shoot better and make them easier to shoot by modifying them. Take this for an example, I took a rear sight from a M&P and welded it up, stuck it in the milling machine and recut it. Its a factory sight but its a little higher and the sight notch is wider. Its a factory sight,am I still good? I personally would think so. Am I cheating? I wouldnt think so and and if it was considered cheating, that would not be my intention. When the NRA said we could use aftermarket barrels in a production gun I think that opened up the doors to go hog wild on them. You, me and everyone else may look at the rules and interpret them in different ways and thats why the rule books get so thick.

[NRAActionPistol]

We as shooters are always trying to figure out how to make our guns shoot better and make them easier to shoot by modifying them.

Take this for an example, I took a rear sight from a M&P and welded it up, stuck it in the milling machine and recut it. Its a factory sight but its a little higher and the sight notch is wider. Its a factory sight,am I still good?

You, me and everyone else may look at the rules and interpret them in different ways and thats why the rule books get so thick.

We as Administrators are looking at the Rules for the "Entire Sport" and will NOT modify the rules for one person, group or location.

The altered sight is probably an external modification, it is "DEFINATELY" a modification to the profile of the original sight and the appearance of the firearm, if it does not look like a site that should be on a "Production" firearm it will probably be prohibited.

The NRA Action Pistol Rule Book as well as the NRA Pistol Rule Book have just been updated and printed, they will NOT get any thicker!

See ya all at the NRA Bianchi Cup in 23 days, with the second gun entries, we are very close to the limit of the range capacity, I do not know how long it has been since that happened, but thanks to a lot of you it will happen this year.

NRA Pistol Dept.

Edited May 2, 2011 by NRAActionPistol

[Jay Della Bella]

ok let me get this straight. If there is a glock or an XD with after market sights that do not match the factory sights exactly then those guns would be disqualified?

I have one more thing for ya Tom. I have an email chain between a shooter and the assistant coordinator saying it does not matter what kind of sight it is(fixed or adjustable) as long as it fits in the factory dove tail.

now what?

[NRAActionPistol]

Jay,

Not Tom,

All we are saying is it can't be an external modification to the original sight, the rule says you can change the sight if it fits and no mods are made. The rule also states that there can be no external modifications, having not seen the sight you altered we just want you and everyone else to know it may be an external mod if it does not look like a Production Division Firearm.

We want the sport to grow, we do not want to scare new shooters away because they can't alter a sight and someone else can.

Production firearms should stay the same with minor accuracy changes, this Division will not change into an Equipment Race.

You can expect the rules to stay as they are into 2012.

NRA Pistol Dept

[Jay Della Bella]

roger that

[meangreen75]

Ok I will ask this question directly to you Jay. I'll be very specific. I would rather hear bad news now and have enough time to make proper changes to my gun before I fly halfway across the nation just to find out the gun I spent money on is DQ'd.

I have a Smith & Wesson M&P Pro 9mm. The gun shot 6" low out of the box even with different types/weights of ammo. After reading the aforementioned email string, I bought a Novak elevation only adjustable rear sight that fit without any modification to my gun. The gun finally hits POA/POI at the 25 yard line now. Is this gun going to be DQ'd?

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

[gm iprod]

You need to email Damien Orsinger at the NRA Pronto. My reading of the rules is, unless that pistol is available with or the factory make a sight that fits in then you can't add an aftermarket adjustable sight to that firearm as you intend.

[Jay Della Bella]

I didnt mean to start a shit storm but I like the rest of you want the same answer. Meangreen75, according to the email chain I have you are good to go, but I am not the NRA. I will bring a copy of it when i go to check my gun in if i decide to shoot production. I put the same set of sights on my gun and now shoots where it want it to.

[Chuck Anderson]

We as Administrators are looking at the Rules for the "Entire Sport" and will NOT modify the rules for one person, group or location.

I've heard this sentiment more than once from Tom, Damien, someone else at NRA maybe? I waited a little while before posting this to cool off. But it still really...well lets just say annoys me. A Production rule that allows a feature on one manufacturers gun, but not on others does exactly what you say you won't do. It allows one person or group to have an advantage, based on equipment, that another group does not. The only reason the popular guns in Production have adjustable sights from the factory was to make enough points to get into the country based on ATF rules. They didn't put them on because they were better (in fact Glock Adjustables are the worst sight I've ever seen, even worse than their normal plastic fixed sights). In effect what the NRA has done with this rule is say X guns are perfectly fine to put whatever adjustable sight on, as long as it fits the dovetail, doesn't have to be factory, or even look like factory. But Y guns, you have to use fixed sight guns because the factory is in the US, they didn't have to meet import restrictions, and apparently the several hundred NRA AP competitors nationwide are not enough to justify building guns to suit us.

A competitor with one of those Y guns (I'm thinking Smith & Wesson but I'm sure there are others) now has to either buy several front sights until they figure out which one is the closest to what they need, buy a taller front sight than they need and file it down, hoping that their filing job is good enough that it doesn't look like an external modification which I guess would be a requirement based on not being able to modify a rear sight. Or learn how to hold 3 inches off at one range, 5 at another, 14 at the 50 yard line, whatever. Or they could just drop an adjustable rear sight on, providing it fits the factory dovetail. Which of these options has more competetive equity and is more inclusive to bring in more competitors?

I know the NRA doesn't want to use USPSA or IPSC Production rules, and I wouldn't suggest they did. Neither are perfect rulesets and both have gone through a lot of growing pains. But ignoring the history of those two sports forays into Production is no better than sticking their heads in the sand and stomping feet. I've offered the NRA to help out, and I'll do it again. There are some very simple ways to make Production what the NRA wants, and what the shooters want, without catering to, "THE GROUP" or "THE INDIVIDUAL", and without having a 200 page rule book. It's too late to go back in USPSA or IPSC but it's not for the NRA.

[Allgoodhits]

Well said, Chuck, as many (most) are likely unaware of the ATF factor as it pertains to "point system" and importation rules.

As you stated, Rules to go by can be drafted and as you said they don't need to be the size of a phone book. I guess, having a meeting of some of the USPSA, IDPA and NRA people come together to derive a common, sensible criteria for Production, Stock or whatever one wants to call it is never going to happen. I would think, and hope, that a "standard" definition across disciplines would be good the shooters, the match operators, referees and the like, but maybe the manufacturers and parts people like the idea that the shooters need different guns and configurations to meet the not quite parallel Rule structures.

MJ

[kimmbeckwith]

That is just the reason I am not shooting production at the Cup. I don't want to deal with all the drama over this problem. I have made the sight modifications that are said to be ok, but that ruleing wasn't from an approved NRA Range Official. I have been this rout before at the Masters with muzzle breaks on rifles. Where they put their foot down and said no breaks, only to show up without one and things change. So, I am waiting. I am taking my M&P with the site modifications for a ruling from a NRA Range Official and hopefully this will be settled before our regional match where I would like to shoot it.

[meangreen75]

Jay,

Not Tom,

All we are saying is it can't be an external modification to the original sight, the rule says you can change the sight if it fits and no mods are made. The rule also states that there can be no external modifications, having not seen the sight you altered we just want you and everyone else to know it may be an external mod if it does not look like a Production Division Firearm.

We want the sport to grow, we do not want to scare new shooters away because they can't alter a sight and someone else can.

Production firearms should stay the same with minor accuracy changes, this Division will not change into an Equipment Race.

You can expect the rules to stay as they are into 2012.

NRA Pistol Dept

Here is my predicament. I have the above gun that I hope is good to go.

I am a new competitor to Bianchi so there is a HUGE draw for me to compete for the newcomer award in Prod. I have already paid for my entry, flight, hotel, rental car and will pay to have my gear sent out to the hotel. I bought the M&P because I know that some top Prod shooters use it and I like the ergos. I don't have another gun that qualifies for Prod. I can't buy another gun before the Cup. I do have a gun that would qualify in Metallic but I'm only going to be a new Cup shooter once. So it would be REALLY nice if we could get some clarification on this while there is enough time to make changes or at least give me a chance to beg and borrow a gun from a friend.

Once again thanks for any feedback.

[Jay Della Bella]

meangreen75

i would bet that they will pass it at inspection.send me your email address and i will send you something. If they dont I will have a few glocks with me and you can shoot one of those.

[Flexmoney]

We as Administrators are looking at the Rules for the "Entire Sport" and will NOT modify the rules for one person, group or location.

I've heard this sentiment more than once from Tom, Damien, someone else at NRA maybe? I waited a little while before posting this to cool off. But it still really...well lets just say annoys me. A Production rule that allows a feature on one manufacturers gun, but not on others does exactly what you say you won't do. It allows one person or group to have an advantage, based on equipment, that another group does not. The only reason the popular guns in Production have adjustable sights from the factory was to make enough points to get into the country based on ATF rules. They didn't put them on because they were better (in fact Glock Adjustables are the worst sight I've ever seen, even worse than their normal plastic fixed sights). In effect what the NRA has done with this rule is say X guns are perfectly fine to put whatever adjustable sight on, as long as it fits the dovetail, doesn't have to be factory, or even look like factory. But Y guns, you have to use fixed sight guns because the factory is in the US, they didn't have to meet import restrictions, and apparently the several hundred NRA AP competitors nationwide are not enough to justify building guns to suit us.

A competitor with one of those Y guns (I'm thinking Smith & Wesson but I'm sure there are others) now has to either buy several front sights until they figure out which one is the closest to what they need, buy a taller front sight than they need and file it down, hoping that their filing job is good enough that it doesn't look like an external modification which I guess would be a requirement based on not being able to modify a rear sight. Or learn how to hold 3 inches off at one range, 5 at another, 14 at the 50 yard line, whatever. Or they could just drop an adjustable rear sight on, providing it fits the factory dovetail. Which of these options has more competetive equity and is more inclusive to bring in more competitors?

I know the NRA doesn't want to use USPSA or IPSC Production rules, and I wouldn't suggest they did. Neither are perfect rulesets and both have gone through a lot of growing pains. But ignoring the history of those two sports forays into Production is no better than sticking their heads in the sand and stomping feet. I've offered the NRA to help out, and I'll do it again. There are some very simple ways to make Production what the NRA wants, and what the shooters want, without catering to, "THE GROUP" or "THE INDIVIDUAL", and without having a 200 page rule book. It's too late to go back in USPSA or IPSC but it's not for the NRA.

That is just the reason I am not shooting production at the Cup. I don't want to deal with all the drama over this problem.

I agree.

[NRAActionPistol]

I bought a Novak elevation only adjustable rear sight that fit without any modification to my gun. The gun finally hits POA/POI at the 25 yard line now. Is this gun going to be DQ'd?

With less the 25 days untill fisrt shot, we have been a little busy. It would be our opinion, that a exceedingly large majority of the Production Divison Firearms Manufacturers have some type of adjustable sight available, which would mean that, all they need to do is fit in the firearm without an external modification.

NRA Pistol Dept

[mpolans]

I bought a Novak elevation only adjustable rear sight that fit without any modification to my gun. The gun finally hits POA/POI at the 25 yard line now. Is this gun going to be DQ'd?

With less the 25 days untill fisrt shot, we have been a little busy. It would be our opinion, that a exceedingly large majority of the Production Divison Firearms Manufacturers have some type of adjustable sight available, which would mean that, all they need to do is fit in the firearm without an external modification.

NRA Pistol Dept

So is that a yes or a no?

[meangreen75]

I bought a Novak elevation only adjustable rear sight that fit without any modification to my gun. The gun finally hits POA/POI at the 25 yard line now. Is this gun going to be DQ'd?

With less the 25 days untill fisrt shot, we have been a little busy. It would be our opinion, that a exceedingly large majority of the Production Divison Firearms Manufacturers have some type of adjustable sight available, which would mean that, all they need to do is fit in the firearm without an external modification.

NRA Pistol Dept

I'll take that as a "Nuff said" statement. Thank you.

[1911vm]

Thank you for a final answer that adjustable sights are good to go if there is no modification to the slide.

I am both happy and frustrated at the same time. I have been asking this question for several months with no avail or a categorical yes or no. and after I sent the gun to the manufacturer so they could get the gun ready. Spent money on fixed sights and installation, and shipping. Less than 25 days before the competition I find out that I could have what I wanted months ago and now may not have time to change. Also will be shooting against people with adjustable sights.

Just saying

[Chuck Anderson]

Roughly matches the time line of last years, aftermarket barrels ruling. That little sucker cost me over $400 to get a barrel fit to my Glock 34 at the last minute. Made it back in the new shooter money (Thanks Midway!), but it would have been nice to have a bit more notice. Now is the time to start working on any rules kinks for next year. There are a handful that would make things much clearer. Hopefully we can get this stuff locked down for 2012.

[mpolans]

Thank you for a final answer that adjustable sights are good to go if there is no modification to the slide.

I am both happy and frustrated at the same time. I have been asking this question for several months with no avail or a categorical yes or no. and after I sent the gun to the manufacturer so they could get the gun ready. Spent money on fixed sights and installation, and shipping. Less than 25 days before the competition I find out that I could have what I wanted months ago and now may not have time to change. Also will be shooting against people with adjustable sights.

Just saying

Where was this categorical yes or no that you speak of? Can someone point it out to me? I must've missed it.

[NRAActionPistol]

All,

Please realize, this is NOT the NRA Action Pistol Forum, we are on here to find out concerns that we may have missed. We do NOT look at this site every day, sometimes it may not be for several weeks. Also keep in mind that the Production Division has only been in existance for 3 years now, we will NOT add a approved Gun List, that is for the benefit of YOU (the competitors), come and shoot, have fun, help us make it better.

In the future, try calling or emailing us at NRA HQ, I think by now, you all should know, there is just (3) three of us to administer ALL of NRA Pistol Competitions. We are mandated by the Pistol Manager to do our very best to answer the questions of our members and competitors in a timely manner if contacted at NRA HQ, NOT HERE.

If you put a question on this sight, you are putting it to the members of this sight and NOT us.

For your reference again:

pistol@nrahq.org

thughes@nrahq.org

dorsinger@nrahq.org

sboyd@nrahq.org

actionpistol@nrahq.org

bianchicup@nrahq.org

We are doing our very best to grow the pistol shooting sports, it's not easy and it will not happen over night, it has gotten better, and it will continue to do so, but not without your help.

If you have an idea to help the WHOLE Pistol Shooting Sports, we want to here it.

NRA Pistol Dept

Edited May 6, 2011 by NRAActionPistol

[1911vm]

I have to admit I called yesterday left a message at 3:30. Got a call back at 8:15 am. All questions answered. Man I cannot believe that I did not do this months ago. Thanks.