tightloop Posted August 16, 2002 Share Posted August 16, 2002 Larry, dude; take a breath and relax. Hope you are not one of the evil Range Nazi's we hear about. My whole gripe with the advertised sermon coming from Berryville, is that they say,"...if you wouldn't carry it on the street, you can't use it in competition" Well they don't have a clue on what is really carried on the street. I know it is a different game than IPSC but if they would just take the time to write out a stage description covering these type of questions, there would be no problem. Problems arise when they try to make it "Tactical" and just tell you to shoot all targets in tactical order /sequence with X number of shots and then bitch and complain about the things you did which were not covered by the stage description. If you took 10 policemen from different parts of the country and gave them the same shooting problem and let them get it handled without conversing among themselves, I doubt it they all would get it done the same way. I would like to think these are just growing pains with IDPA, and that they will get them ironed out, but after seeing some of the stuff at some matches recently, I wonder. I went to a regional match where we had to break a ballon stapled on a fence B4 we made our draw, we had to get out of a car and retrieve our pistol from inside a box in the trunk B4 we engaged any targets, and the new IDPA regional coordinator was the MD. Maybe it is just a local problem...I wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted August 16, 2002 Share Posted August 16, 2002 'loop you make some good points. Idpa has a 'guide' for writing course scenarios 'the car-jack-scenario etc. Stages can also test skills that would be used in a actual confrontation . I tend to design stages around that concept [testing]. Things like a minimum number of shots required per target -usually more than 2 but less than 5- engagement sequence in tac-seq for the initial rounds then leave the remaining rds to the shooters discretion.,as long as the cover is used properly I'm pretty lenient to how an operator solves the stage. Guys who are stuck in the doulbe tap mantra will sometimes forget to READ the course description and might end up dropping a round here or there-but otherwise the responses from the participants have been favorable. If any of you are in the Phx area on the 4th Sunday of the month - let me know and come out to join us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted August 16, 2002 Author Share Posted August 16, 2002 This thread has certainly taken a nasty turn. There's no specific rule that says I can't start 9+1, then reload with 10 round mags (max gamey) for the most advantage, yet there are SOs out there ready to "catch" me at it. Seems like a simple rule addition would clear this up, as the reloads they want you do do pretty much beg a person to either dump rounds downrange or load mags according to the stage. Thinking that people aren't going to be looking for a competitive edge is naive. The first stage I shot that required me to move from behind cover to engage targets in the open pretty much killed that whole "tactical" thing IMHO, making it just another game with different and as of yet incomplete rules. They should have spent less time bashing IPSC and more time thinking this thing through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted August 16, 2002 Share Posted August 16, 2002 Well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 16, 2002 Share Posted August 16, 2002 Hi guys. I might as well sound off. I shoot a couple of local action pistol matches that aren't IDPA and aren't USPSA. Everybody loads eight in the gun to start, and eight in the reload mags. Works great. Feel free to forward this info to the "powers that be". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Shooter Posted August 25, 2002 Share Posted August 25, 2002 Wondering if any other LEOs ran into the same FTDR penalty that I did. Just to make things easier on Vickers stages I had been loading my starting mag with 11 rounds (LEO mags), there by starting 10+1. All other mags on the belt had 10 rounds. RO said rules say "not more than 10 rounds in any mag". How is this a competetive advantage? I was just making the stage go quicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted August 25, 2002 Share Posted August 25, 2002 Since this is your first post, I won't flame you, but go back and read the preceeding 3 pages and then ask your question again. There are those who do anything to gain a point or shave a second and if it isn't in the green bible, they think they can use it. Then there are those who have some kind of telepathic link to Bill Wilson, and interpret the rules according to that telepathic link regardless of what the rule book says; or more importantly, does not say. Go to a couple of matches and you be your own judge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Shooter Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 I read the previous 3 pages. That is what got me thinking about my FTDR. I was asking the question as a reality check for my own benefit. I don't think I was doing anything wrong but sometimes one doesn't always see the other side of the argument. I've been to matches for a couple of years now and have always loaded my first mag on Vickers stages with 11 to start 10+1 without taking a lot of time. Didn't know people got flamed here for just asking a simple question. No wonder these games get so screwed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 Navy, I don't know about IDPA. In USPSA Production, the rule states you can't put 11 in the mag. We beat that around quite a bit in one of these threads. Pretty silly...but it is the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 Navy You shouldn't have been penalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Shooter Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 Roger That. I have already started only loading 10. I thought maybe someone would chime in explaining why what I did was so wrong it deserved a FTDR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 Navy Shooter, You should NOT have received ANY penalty. The FTDR is ONLY for people who are cheating. I have loaded 11 rounds in my mags many times including at the IDPA Nationals. The idea is to have no more than 10 rounds in your mag with one extra in the chamber when the start signal sounds. This is one of the rules that needs to be clarified. Also your SO needs to lighten up. Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 I've SO'd a few sanctioned matches. I don't see a FTDR here. But I would likely waste the time the shooter just tried saved by loading that way by asking him to remove the mag so I could visually check the mag. At a local match depending on the cof I would only ding them if they gained an advantage by cheating loading over 11 rounds. I have a local shooter load this way all the time. I know he doesn't do it for any other reason than to speed the loading process. I can't say that I've seen it happen but I it probably has. Pretty hard to assess a FTDR before one actually sees the attempt to subvert the rules. Mark (Edited by Mayonaise at 9:11 pm on Aug. 26, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 Mark, are you talking about me? You just think I am putting in 11. I have filled and redrilled the holes in the back of the mag. Game on!!!!!!! Boy did I shoot poorly Sun. Too many external distractions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 You aren't the only one with gamer hi caps. But you do use the method frequently. Show up early on Wed for equipment check! I couldn't make it on Sunday. Mike needs to move the start time up a couple of hours in the summer IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
down0 Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 Ouch! An FTDR? That's very bad mojo and your SO should be spanked! I run hi caps and load 11 all the time. The only time SO's say anything is when they check to make sure I don't need to top up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 You have been lucky or the SO's who work your matches don't know what they are supposed to do. go to a Regional or the Nationals and you might not get the FTDR, but you will certainly get a penalty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter G Posted September 8, 2002 Share Posted September 8, 2002 Just a word to add to the high cap and leo mags, just because you load you first mag with 11 is fine , I do that all the time, here is the kicker, the only time you cant start with that 11 round mag is if at the buzzer your gun starts unloaded by course design, and then after the buzzer you load and shoot. This is to emulate that no mag will have more than ten rounds in any division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 It depends on how anal the SO wants to be. Technically they're within their rights to call loading 11 into the first mag illegal. Some will, some won't. Personally, since the most my single-stack .45 mags will hold is 8, for me it's a non-issue. But if I was firing in SSP or ESP with high-cap mags (and I've done this in the past) I'd just use a Barney mag to chamber load, pop it out and then insert a 10. I don't need some nitpicky SO raining all over my mental equilibrium just before I shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 Duane It is not how anal they might be, they have the Hammer because they are now the SO, and turn into the Range Nazi from Hell. Not all just a few. Most of these guys have some kind of authority problem and suffer from the Nepolean complex. They want to become the SO because they are in Power with that job. If you get one of these, no nit is too small to pick. On the other hand, there are some that are just secure enough with themselves to do a great job and are super people. We all have seen both kinds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter G Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 Duane, Point taken however I have never seen a penalty for this and if I do I would request a protest and use the green book for backup, page 32 #14 read the bottom. "In the case of SSP division, this will be 11 rounds total. To me the problem is only applied after the gun is loaded and not before. As long as each of the other two mags on your belt are at 10 there is no grounds for a penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 Well, haven’t checked this thread in a while so I will catch up a little! Tightloop: "Hope you are not one of the evil Range Nazi's we hear about." No, probably one of the most easy going SOs you will ever run into, UNTIL you start that range lawyer crap. Well it doesn’t say it in the rules, BS Doesn’t say you can’t use a full auto, do ghost reloads or shoot people either - but ya cant! I don’t understand anyone that is told up front - "YOU CANT DO THIS" saying its not in the rule book and arguing the point - SO WHAT, if every possible infraction was in the LGB it would look like our TAX CODE, probably worse, Screw that! We are adults I think? If there is a club out there with Stupid MDs/SOs making stupid rulings tell the AC that’s what their for, if you don’t know the AC, send it to HQ they will get it to them! OR document it with the MD – ask him to sign it and tell the MD you are going to report it!! Like that silly FTDR for loading 11 in a load-up mag!!! There is no WRITTEN rule against it but there is a verbal rule against it. (I bet there will be in the next LGB, however they don’t print new rulebooks just because there is someone who wants to see it in print. They would be printing a new LGB every month! Hope they improve the layout in the next one) Berryville has said you CAN’T do it. Sniffle Sniffle " I gotta have it in Writing" Here ya go: "Ifn ya starts the match wit 8 rnd mags, ya gots to use 8 rnd mags da hole match" Good nough? Now you gots it in writin! We were told at the Nats (2001) to not allow this - the competitors were then told - you had to write down the capacity of your mags on your score sheets for each stage - then the SOs were told to watch for it – the Stats (scoring) people were told to watch for it! DO YOU THINK MAYBE HQ DOESNT WANT YOU DOING IT? Your Deal but I am telling you if you get caught at the nats or at a sanctioned match you will receive a FTDR and possibly be DQed, kinda silly to take that risk if you ask me, But too each his own! Navy Shooter - your SO was a BAFOON or MAROON which ever you wish!! Mayonaise: Why would you ask to see it? “Shooter you only have 11 rounds in your gun RIGHT?” “yes sir!” He’s an adult, you called it to his attention; if he shoots 12 out of that mag, Ding him! Titeloop: Quote: from Tightloop on 6:39 am on Aug. 28, 2002 You have been lucky or the SO's who work your matches don't know what they are supposed to do. go to a Regional or the Nationals and you might not get the FTDR, but you will certainly get a penalty At the Nats take it to the MD Jim Hewins, I don’t know for CERTAIN but I bet he would set that right! I hope he would! At any match I would take that to the MD that’s someone with (a little) to much power! Duane: He wasn’t Anal, he was Anally retentive! There is a difference! Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 You are welcome to your opinion, but until Bill Wilson signs on to clarify this nonsense, I have my opinion as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 No opinion to it, Fact: We were all told at nationals not to allow it and at every major match I have been to or SOed (thats a few). My "Opinion" is that if your told up front "dont do it, regardless what it is, or the reason, You dont do it! If you do it anyway your a cheater! If you get caught you will be treated as such! No skin off my back! Hell why not just load to what ever the advantagious place to reload is: well if I load 4 here I can reload and run the rest of the stage. So if its not in the rule book its not enforceable, Thats a slippery slope, Kinda Clintonesk isnt it! Well I guess some of us are kids! Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 (Edited by tightloop at 3:23 pm on Sep. 16, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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