blind bat Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I'm signed up for the S&W Indoor Nationals next month. Is there an IDPA policy about releasing CoF designs to the shooters before the match? This will be my first "major" match so it would be nice if I could get the stages straight in my mind before the match. I know stages for sanctioned matches must be submitted to the AC and HQ but I couldn't find anything on when the stages need to be announced to the shooter. Needless to say I've been scouring youtube for every shaky cam video of prior S&W matches... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 COFs are frequently not public before the match. Some folks will set them up and practice the hell out of them. You'll get the COF writeups with your shooter packet when you show up at the range. Show up, shoot, have fun. Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Yeh that way only the MD and his buds get to set up the stages and practice the hell out of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg K Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) You will not get the stages for the indoor ahead of time. If you are seen looking at the stages you may be DQ'd. Here is their statement from the match info. Stage Viewing: Competitors will NOT be allowed to view the stages before their designated shoot time. Any competitor (including members of the press) found on the stages prior to their squad time will receive an FTDR penalty and match disqualification for repeat offenses. Edited January 11, 2011 by Gregg K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 So none of the SO's, scorekeepers, staff, stage builders, or other people involved are allowed to shoot the match ? Who resets and tapes ? Secret stages generally dont work. They are never secret to everyone. I quit shooting the VA indoor for that very reason, the first half of the match was in near total darkness and if you wernt on the match staff or local and had plenty of time to practice and memorize target location,you basically didnt have a prayer of being competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirveyr Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 You will not get the stages for the indoor ahead of time. If you are seen looking at the stages you may me DQ'd. Here is their statement from the match info. Stage Viewing: Competitors will NOT be allowed to view the stages before their designated shoot time. Any competitor (including members of the press) found on the stages prior to their squad time will receive an FTDR penalty and match disqualification for repeat offenses. I believe this is a S&W thing. I was told it's for security, they don't want a bunch of people wandering around the S&W facility. I'm sure you've figured this out by now, but the CoF book does not look ANYTHING like the stages you will be shooting, so don't even try to plan ahead. They are good for practicing the occasional odd starting position and that's about it. At other matches, my friends and I usually visit the range and check out the stages the night before we shoot a major. Be careful though, there are some MD that think this is "against the spirt of IDPA". I was told that I will not be able to prepare for a gun fight, so why should I be able to prepare for a match. Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg K Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 The original poster was asking about the S&W indoor so I posted the information for that match. Many match directors do forbid you to walk or check out the stages before the match. Most will quote rule C4 from page 9 of the rulebook. C 4. Individual rehearsals of a CoF are not permitted. What to do about Joe's concerns about secret stages that some competitors have intimate knowledge about is a whole new subject. Voting with your feet as Joe did is the only answer that I have come up with. Some matches will be a little unfair and others will be a lot such as one that I refused to go to where they had blind stages and the match director was a competitor and guess what, he won/stole his division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) So none of the SO's, scorekeepers, staff, stage builders, or other people involved are allowed to shoot the match ? Who resets and tapes ? Secret stages generally dont work. They are never secret to everyone. I quit shooting the VA indoor for that very reason, the first half of the match was in near total darkness and if you wernt on the match staff or local and had plenty of time to practice and memorize target location,you basically didnt have a prayer of being competitive. Blind stages are not legal but that is not what they are doing. I have seen shooters show up the day the SO's shoot and walk the stages, use a stop watch to time movers, pace off all targets, and scope out all the stages so they can analyze them the night before. Saying that you can't see the stages or walk them before your scheduled time to shoot doesn't mean you DON'T get a walk through or get to see the stage before you shoot it. When we set up our Labor Day regional last year we put up caution tape and if you were not that day and you were down range of the tape it would be considered an individual walk through and a FTDR would be assessed. Also we put up some barriers in stages that had movers set up, we gave the squads a walk through and they were able to see what was going on before they shot but you could not sit in the "gallery" and scope it out. Edited January 9, 2011 by Strick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) Lots of matches won't let you preview the stages before match day. That's nothing new. Joe4d - Have you ever MD'd or SO'd a sanctioned match? Did it help your score? Edited January 9, 2011 by Steve Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oak hill Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Don't worry too much about the stage design, but more importantly listen to the SO during walk through for any little quirks that they might put into the stage description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Actually I SO'd that one and won my division against a couple non staff shooters much better than me, I shot it cold on subsequent years and didnt have a prayer of competing with the locals and staff. I have RO'd quite a few USPSA major matches and no id didnt help score generally because I really only see one stage all day and the staff shoots on friday so doesnt have much rehearsal time, The stages are also publicized a month or so out as well as being open anytime a squad isnt shooting. Enough with the phony secret squirrel stuff, The only way to be fair to everyone is for everyone to know what the stages are. Various people from score keepers, to stage builders, to sponsored vendor teams will literally spend hours in and around the stages. Most of these people will also shoot the match. To turn around and threaten a DQ or FTDR to the out of town shooter who wants to observe a few squads is pretty hypocritical and a match I refuse to participate in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegot38 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I have never shot a sancioned match in PA, NJ, or NY where you got to even see a match booklet in advance of actual check in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I've seen them days or weeks in advance on the www. In booklets the night before. In booklets the morning of. The drawings seldom give a good impression of what is on the ground. I've watched the staff shoot the day before. You'd think that would help a lot but the stages just seem to run together before the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blind bat Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 I thought this was going to be a simple, cut and dry thread. To be honest, I just want to get my mental game in order before the match so I can focus on getting good hits on match day. Of course 75% of all plans go out the window when the buzzer goes off. I don't really see what the big deal is if everyone is given the stages when the staff sets up for the match. That just seems fair. It could be argued that previewing the CoFs is reward for helping with the match which I think is valid if the staff is required to pay for the match. I applaud the guy who has the time, money and dedication to practice the hell out the 8+ stages before the match. It would be great to see someone with a one or two year old IDPA number take on the Dave Sevigny and Jerry Miculek. I bet it would be great for the sport or at least the gun rags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Send a well thought out letter of complaint to the MD. Maybe you'll get your check back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Actually I SO'd that one and won my division against a couple non staff shooters much better than me, I shot it cold on subsequent years and didnt have a prayer of competing with the locals and staff. I have RO'd quite a few USPSA major matches and no id didnt help score generally because I really only see one stage all day and the staff shoots on friday so doesnt have much rehearsal time, The stages are also publicized a month or so out as well as being open anytime a squad isnt shooting. Enough with the phony secret squirrel stuff, The only way to be fair to everyone is for everyone to know what the stages are. Various people from score keepers, to stage builders, to sponsored vendor teams will literally spend hours in and around the stages. Most of these people will also shoot the match. To turn around and threaten a DQ or FTDR to the out of town shooter who wants to observe a few squads is pretty hypocritical and a match I refuse to participate in. Typically it is the out of town sjooters that show up early anyway since the locals don't have to travel to a match or are working it. That is also why we didn't ban people from coming out, they just were not allowed into the bays. What ever they could see from behind the line was as good as they get from a matchbook, we were just not going to let them pace off targets and walk through the stage repeatedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I thought this was going to be a simple, cut and dry thread. To be honest, I just want to get my mental game in order before the match so I can focus on getting good hits on match day. Of course 75% of all plans go out the window when the buzzer goes off. I don't really see what the big deal is if everyone is given the stages when the staff sets up for the match. That just seems fair. It could be argued that previewing the CoFs is reward for helping with the match which I think is valid if the staff is required to pay for the match. I applaud the guy who has the time, money and dedication to practice the hell out the 8+ stages before the match. It would be great to see someone with a one or two year old IDPA number take on the Dave Sevigny and Jerry Miculek. I bet it would be great for the sport or at least the gun rags. I am not sure how you mentally prepare for a match based on a drawing. Kind of hard to focus on getting your hits when you really don't know where the targets are. Spend all that time worrying about it for weeks and when you show up the reworked it because during the SO shoot showed issues and I guess all your planning just went out the window. Also the entire staff usually doesn't get the stages until the day they set up and then they shoot it the next day. Regular shooters usually get them the night before at registration and shoot it the next day. Don't see what the issue is. Mayeb you could volunteer so you could get the early bird peak and really get a jump on the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glock3422 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Having been involved with S&W for the last two years, and will be again this year. I can tell you that SOing that match has been the worst possible way to shoot it. Just ask the local SOs who have decided to not participate. Even if you see or actually set up a stage, it is no more benefit than walking on to the stage as a competitor. You still have to make your own decision about the stage and the best way for you to shoot it. If you were an SO last year, the SO shooting day was longer than any other day of the match and did not flow well. This year will be very different and much better. There will be a group of about seven well qualified SOs who will run the seven bays. The match SOs will shoot in squads of about five each. They will move through the match as the competitors will, on match days, in squads of twelve. Is that an advantage? That plan will typically allow for the stage SO, and two to score and paste. The other three will be the guy who just shot, the current shooter, and the next to shoot. Not a lot of down time. S&W has made a financial commitment to do this and improve the experience of the SOs. The guys who run SO day, will shoot as a squad during the competition. Certainly the people designing individual stages have a good idea about how they will be laid out, but S&W is such a unique place, that no one knows what it will look like or how it will be laid out until it is in place and the safety people have blessed it. That is a major factor at this match. I know that most of the S&W stages are designed and on paper. But not all. The execution of some of those stages will change things significantly because of the physical limitations and safety concerns of the facility. That is part of what makes it so special. No, I have not seen the stages on paper and it wouldn't really help. Each of the last two years (and I expect all the others), stages have been changed in significant ways right up until the first shot was fired. The match director last year and this year will not shoot the match. Frank Glover never shoots The Carolina Cup and will not shoot this match either. Frank does not allow anyone to pre-shoot a stage. Timing and transitions off of activators are tested. That is all. I haven't seen any testing in two years at S&W. That has resulted in SO reshoots for activators that were not set correctly. I quit looking at diagrams of stages years ago. The only time I found them to be valuable was a few years ago when they were published on the web before a match. Knowing what they were trying to do, we set up the most difficult version of the diagram we could come up with. Did it help? Probably, on those two or three stages. But not significantly. Going to a major match, practice head shots, strong hand only, and weak hand only at 150% of the rule book maximum. Your practice will be rewarded. Oh, RWR and Tac Loads. They may not be required, but they may come in handy. It is S&W and low light/no light/hostile light should be expected. Have a good flashlight and practice with it. It may not help on many stages, but the stages it helps on could be significant. I have seen guys come in with an inovative plan for use of their light burn down a stage when no one else thought of it, including the SOs running the stage who previewed it. DO NOT SHOOT SMOKEY POWDERS AND LEAD! YOU WILL SUFFER. S&W's restriction on range access is to a degree about keeping the field level. It is mostly about limiting access to a building that does not have space for "tours" while the match is going on. Most of the shooting areas are very tight and there just isn't room for observers. There are five stages where there is absolutely no possiblility of a preview. There are two stages that any one can observe from the retail area. The rest of the areas are just off limits. There will not be any blind stages, but everyone will get the same look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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