Single Shots Or Double Taps In IDPA?

[Duane Thomas]

Okay, we know the rules on scoring in IDPA: unless specified in the course description (which it is a depressingly large percentage of the time when people from double tap centric IPSC start up an IDPA club) there is no minimum or maximum number of shots required on any one target in IDPA. The center circle counts 5 points, what would be the B-zone on an IPSC target counts 4. Anything less than 5 points on target and you're dinged a .50 second penalty for every point less that five. Less than 4 points on target and you get a failure to neutralize penalty of 5 seconds.

There are two possible approaches to solving this problem. If you can fire one perfect shot into the 5-circle, you don't need to fire any more. You've got your 5 points, you're golden. If you're not convinced you can be that perfect on every target, double tap, knowing that if your two shots hit anywhere within center mass you've got your 5 points.

At the Washington State IDPA Championships several years ago, the guy who won the match used the first technique. He figured that, as long as he hit the 5-circle every time, and assuming an equal level of skill between himself and his opponents, he could save about .20 second per target if he fired one shot instead of two. It worked. He shot only as fast as he knew he could hit the 5-circle, never fired more than one shot per target the entire match, and was the state champion.

So what I'm wondering is, what is the technique that wins at the highest levels:  single shots or double taps? I'd love to have Ernest Langdon or Rob Leatham, or any of the other top-level champion IDPA shooters answer this question because I'm dying of curiousity.

[John Thompson]

Wow.  Every IDPA match I shot at said you had to have at least a required amount of hits on a target.  I know that limited vickers is finally being discourged  but I just shot a match that required two hits per target on three of the stages and three hits per on the last two stages.  I can see how allowing only one hit per target can be abused to "game" the game.

[Ron Ankeny]

Every IDPA match that I have shot required two hits. The one hit concept is news to me.

[Bill]

Duane,

Was that Washington State match scored by Vickers count or Paladin? Sounds more like Paladin.

I figure I have shot over 100 IDPA matches since it started. That would amount to in excess of 500 stages. In EVERY Vickers count stage a minimum number of rounds would be scored according to the match description. I have seen any number from 1 to 6 per target. If for instance 2 rounds per target were specified then only firing one "5" would give you minus 5 points for the extra shot not fired. Each shot not fired would add 2.5 seconds to your time. NOT good.  If only one round per target is scored then top shooters will only fire one round unless a make up shot is needed.

I am not Ernie or Rob but I can tell you they get all the points they can. Usually the top shooters will fire the minimum number of rounds specified by the course design and occasionally will fire an extra make up shot to get maximum points.

Bill Nesbitt

[Duane Thomas]

Guys,

If you read the rule book there is no minimum shots rule in IDPA, unless specified in the course description. There is a minimum POINTS rule. If the course description specifies two shots on target in Vickers Count, then your best two hits on target count, make-up shots allowed. In Limited Vickers you may only fire as many rounds as specified in the course description, with the famous .50 second penalty for every point down from a possible score on target. If there is no set number of rounds specified in the course description...well, there's no set number of rounds specified in the course description. Then you're right back to 5 points is all you need. If you can do that with one shot...you can do that with one shot.

[Bill]

I guess it just depends on the course description. All the matches I have gone to including all 4 National Championships specify the minimum number of rounds that will be scored.

Bill Nesbitt

[Bill]

Duane,

If no number of rounds are specified, what if a shooter fires 2 shots at a target, both minus 3's. Is the shooter down 6 points or 1 point the way you are talking about? How about if they fire 2 "5's" can you get 2.5 seconds subtracted from your score?

I edited my post to remove mention of a one-time experimental controversial stage that could only confuse the issue. If anyone wants details they can e-mail me.

Bill Nesbitt

(Edited by BILL at 8:15 am on Sep. 21, 2001)

[benos]

Duane,

The rule book may say that, but i think every match I've heard about requires at least 2 hits per target. Also, recently I had a class with Bill Wilson's girlfriend, Joyce Fowler, who's pretty tough by the way, and The Great One gave his us his feelings on at what point HE stops insuring A's and shoots for 2 C's instead - hoping that at least one, or maybe both, maybe A's. At a .5 sec add, I found his dissertation surprising, I figured he'd pretty much be shooting for ONLY A's almost all the time. Nevertheless, it was also not surprising as I remembered a similar time some years ago when we realized that it was indeed more effective to shoot at a quicker pace when shooting those nasty 4" plates at 35 yds for the Team Challenge, even if it meant having to do an extra reload in the same time span.

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[Duane Thomas]

Bill,

"If no number of rounds are specified, what if a shooter fires 2 shots at a target, both minus 3's. Is the shooter down 6 points or 1 point the way you are talking about?"

1 point.

"How about if they fire 2 "5's" can you get 2.5 seconds subtracted from your score?"

No.

"I just remembered one club shoot where the shooter was just told to neutralize the targets, but all hits would be scored for points down. I only fired one round at each target except for the target that had 1 minus 3. I made up the shot with a minus 0 and was scored minus 3 for that target."

Weird. Sounds like they had an...interesting interpretation of the rules. The way you're describing it, the more holes you put in the target the more penalties you can get. It don't work that way in anything except Limited Vickers. And Limited Vickers, per IDPA rules, should be used on standard exercises, not scenarios.

[Bill]

I am quoting from the most current IDPA rule book the "Green Book".

"Vickers Count scoring is based on assessing the shooter a  "Time" penalty for every point the shooter drops from the total "Possible" score (points down). As many shots as desired may be fired but only the best hits as specified by the course description will be scored. (Example: if 2 hits per target are specified in the course description and you fire 3 shots, ONLY the 2 highest scoring hits will count for score).

The main thing to remember when scoring Vickers Count is that everything is based on time and that you are working with the POINTS DOWN from the possible, NOT the points scored on the target." unquote

In this example if the shooter only fired 1 shot he would be scored minus 5 for the shot not fired and 2.5 seconds would be added to his time.

The ONLY time you would ADD points is to find out if a shooter got a Failure To Neutralize penalty.

The points down system has been in use for the last several years. Some matches have been advertised as IDPA matches when they were run by another scoring system.

I teach the rule book to new Safety Officers so I have studied the rules.

Bill Nesbitt

[Singlestack]

Dat's a lot-o-rules. Think I'll stick with IPSC.

[Duane Thomas]

Bill,

I don't see anything in there that contradicts what I said.

[Bill]

Singlestack,

Actually the USPSA rule book is twice as thick as the IDPA rule book.

Duane,

I guess if the stage design didn't specify the number of rounds then you could "Assume" that they would only score the single best hit. Remember, Vickers count is scored on points down from Possible score on the target. How can you score Vickers if you don't KNOW what possible is?

Bill Nesbitt

[Duane Thomas]

Bill,

I think the confusion here is in the assumption that the possible points on target is always controlled by how many shots you fire. If you fire one shot it's 5, two shots it's 10, etc.  If the course description does not specify a minimum number of shots on target, your only mission description is to neutralize the target, then the maximum possible points on target is 5 - period - no matter how many shots you fire.

Let's say a shooter fires a -3 on target (aka 2 points), recognizes his mistake and puts a follow-up shot right outside the 5-circle for a -1 (4 points). That's 6 points on target, so his score would be 5, not -4. Otherwise you've got a situation where a shooter fires a non-dynamic peripheral hit, follows up with a solid center mass shot...and when he does that his score gets WORSE, which makes no sense at all.

I know IDPA changed the numbers on their target's scoring areas from 5, 4 and 2 to -0, -1 and -3, respectively to make it easier to score, but sometimes I think they caused more problems than they solved with that.

[Nik Habicht]

Duane,

Every course description I've seen in the last two years of shooting IDPA has specified engaging each target with two shots.  That includes the local monthly match where courses are almost always pulled from stages on the IDPA website, the other local match where almost all courses are designed in house and the 2001 Winter Nationals.  By the way, any guesses as to whether there will be a 2002 Winter Nationals? I mean considering that S&W closed the Academy?

[Ron Ankeny]

Not to muddy the waters, but conversations like this one, along with some of the new "recommended" guidelines from IDPA are starting to chase new IDPA shooters away. In one respect that's good because we add ranks to our production class IPSC shooters. OTOH, that's bad because we need new blood across the board in all of the shooting sports.

When our new club formed up this summer we had a long discussion on whether to go with IPSC or with IDPA because we are too young to do both. The decision was pretty easy.

[benos]

Ron, Duane,

OK, since it seems the original question turned out to be more speculative than acualitive (I just made that word up - should I delete the thread? (I'm in a funny mood today.)

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[Bill]

Ron,

I don't think your post was IDPA vs IPSC. I have shot both & the reason I only shoot IDPA is because that is what all the local clubs shoot.

Nik,

thanks for your post. Let us know if you find anything.

Brian

Don't delete the thread. Maybe someone can get something from it.

IDPA changed the rule book in 1997 to score points down from possible in Vickers count. The target was also changed then to the minus score markings. So for nearly the entire history of IDPA they have been scoring points down from possible. I don't know what else to say. I just hope no one was misled here.

Sheeesh. Now I remember why I usually just lurk on the internet. BILL going back to "Lurker Mode"

[John Thompson]

The IDPA's book may be smaller than IPSC's but over the last couple editions it's catching up fast.  I seen arguments about stage procedure at almost ever IDPA match I've ever shot. The IDPA set out to be rule simpler than IPSC but it also tried to do it with open ended guidelines i.e. you must shoot this stage tactically.  Problem is what is tactical and who decides what is? See the problems caused by that?  If the IDPA's going to have guidelines about stage design, proceedure, etc it's going to have to conceed that maybe the thickness of IPSC's rule book wasn't such a bad idea after all.  That or the IDPA is going to have to back off it's guidelines cause IPSC is a lot less restrictive than the IDPA so I can emagine how thick the IDPA book could become.  My opinion is not a slam on the IDPA just an observation. I shoot at some good IDPA clubs that are run by some really nice people.

(Edited by John Thompson at 12:03 am on Sep. 20, 2001)

[Flexmoney]

Bill,

I feel your pain.  I know you lurked for quite a while.  Then, if I recall correctly, one of your first post (here) was quite a handful.

Please don't go to lurk mode though.  The board needs you (Who else is going to champion the IDPA format? ).  Your experience in IDPA, revolver, and  shooting in general is a great asset.

Do what you gotta do to get your focus together for your IDPA Nationals then hurry back to us.

Good luck.

[DogmaDog]

Duane said:

"Let's say a shooter fires a -3 on target (aka 2 points), recognizes his mistake and puts a follow-up shot right outside the 5-circle for a -1 (4 points). That's 6 points on target, so his score would be 5, not -4. Otherwise you've got a situation where a shooter fires a non-dynamic peripheral hit, follows up with a solid center mass shot...and when he does that his score gets WORSE, which makes no sense at all."

I don't think this is correct.  Vickers count stages must specify the number of hits that will be scored on target (usually best 2, but I have shot stages where 5 or 6 hits were scored).

If 1 hit were specified in the scenario above, then the -1 shot would count, and the -3 would not.  The shooter would get whatever time it took him to make the 2 shots, + 1/2 second.  

In situations where 1 hit is specified, and a shooter took 2 shots and scored two -3 hits, I think he'd get -3, but would not get a failure to neutralize because there are 4 points total on the target.  But that could be wrong.  What do y'all think?

Semper Fi,

DogmaDog

[BradC]

edit: In reading the thread again, It looks as though you are talking about stages where the number of hits on a target a not specified.  If that were the case, then I would only every shoot on on each if only 1 was to be scored.  If 2 hits to the paper are going to be scored, I don't think anyone can afford -2.5 seconds per target, thus my original post!

Very interesting topic!

-------

I've never really tried to apply a 'points' mentality to IDPA other than to say "Be as few points down as possible".

In a 6 target scenerio, the method described would net the shooter 15 seconds in penalties (2.5 seconds per target), for 6 shots fired.  If you figure a HIGH split of .5 per extra shot, 6 more, that's only 3 seconds in actual time and if, worse case, they were all -3's, that's an addition 9 seconds in penalties, giving you a total of 11 seconds down, thus winning the stage by a nice margin.  In this case, if you can take less than 1 second per target to aquire your site and hit it anywhere then you'll be faster overall to take the extra shot.

I can't think of a scenerio where not putting the second hit on paper would work at a match with mutiple expert or master class shooters.  Since no course is supposed to go over 18 rounds at the most it would only give you a 1 re-load advantage, again, not significant in the overall match standings.

If we use the classifier as an example:

The top guys (pros) are shooting it in raw times of the high 50's to low 60 second range (I've seen Matt Burkett screw around and do it in 64 seconds raw time).

If you shoot it with 1 per target where it is 'suggests' 2 per tagert, that would net you 39 misses, or 195 seconds in penalties.  So, no matter your raw time, you are assured the ranking of Novice.

I think the old addage "You can't miss fast enough to win" applies!

Duane, I hope I got your point, its rather early but I'm about to head to and IDPA match and wanted to put some numbers behind this before I tried something wild =)

Interesting Topic!!

BradC

A46143

(Edited by BradC at 8:10 am on June 22, 2002)

[Duane Thomas]

Believe me, I'm not saying you should only fire one shot per when the course description specifies more! And it's true that in IDPA course descriptions, almost invariably they do specify two shots per target - a holdover from their IPSC roots, methinks. My point was that in a stage that doesn't specify number of rounds on target but simply that the target be neutralized - rare as that may be, I've been to entire matches where that was indeed the case, the 1999 Washington State IDPA Championships for one (or was it '98?) - the technique that wins is one accurate shot per target. The guy who won that state championship match used that techcnique.

[Larrys1911]

Duane,

I am way late to this but I gotta ask, as someone else did, If it doesn’t state the number of hits required, how do you score it???

Do you then assume that it is "best one shot"?  If I walk onto a range and the CoF states "Neutralize the tgts".  My first question will be, "what does that mean"?

I wouldn't try one per at a major match wihtout asking the SO first. You might not like the end result.

I have only shot one CoF (in 4yrs) that specified less than 2 shots on a tgt.  The stage called for a headshot on each tgt in a hostage situation, I designed it. There was no score for anything but a headshot and that was stated in the CoF description!

The shots on the tgts are not cumulative over the number required.   If you shoot 10 shots on a tgt that requires 2 you will be scored for your 2 best hits, not the cumulative of the 10 shots!   Maybe I misunderstood you there!  If it’s the best one hit on paper then you better have at least one GOOD hit!  Six, -3s won't help you

anymore than one, -3 would.  If one hit is required then that is all thats scored.  The highest scoring hit will be the ONLY one that counts.

I have SOed the Nats and quite a few regional and state level matches, not to mention a BUNCH of local stuff and I have very rarely seen a expert or above, that is "good", shoot for extra hits on a tgt.  I Don’t!  I think most people stop that at SS.  I know none of the upper level shooters your talking about do it.  If it calls for the best ONE hit by all means make it count and shoot ONE time!  The one Caveat here is people dumping rounds of course.

Its always faster (OK usually faster) to just shoot the required number of rounds on a tgt!  It doesnt matter if its 1 or 6!

Thanks, you have given me an idea for a stage

Normally everyone calls for the best two on the tgt around here.  I am going to try for some new stuff soon. Require no less than 3 throughout a club match.  EXCEPT for that one stage that is going to be best ONE on the tgt.  The part you didn't mention is that the tgt still will have to have one hit that is not less than a -1 (4pts) on the tgt or its still a FTN, OUCH!

I LIKE IT!

Thanks again

(Edited by Larrys1911 at 12:48 am on July 6, 2002)

[Duane Thomas]

The idea was there's no specific number of shots required, but anything less than 5 points on target and you get the .50 second penalty per point, anything less than 4 points and you get a FTN. It's an....interesting way to approach things.

(Edited by Duane Thomas at 9:20 pm on Nov. 29, 2002)