10.4.2 A shot which strikes the ground...

[spanky]

Thanks, Nik.

My question remains. Is the measurement taken to the tip of the foot/shoe? Or where the shoe touches the ground or fault line?

[Dave Campbell]

The rule states , "A shot which strikes the ground within 10 feet of the competitor".

Measure from the shooter to where the bullet hit the ground.

If you have both points to measure the distance, it should be cut and dried.

There are specific measurements , its in or its out, its like the 180, a specific point, over it , DQ, under it OK.

Dave

[Mark R]

I think the point of the rule is to enforce the safety aspect of drawing a loaded weapon. If the shooter draws his pistol, and puts his/her finger in the trigger before the sights line up, the pistol may go bang...unintentional or accidental discharge. Or if he/she was moving while drawing and again the gun goes bang. Unsafe gun handling skills either way you look at it.

I think the 10 ft rule is the way the rule makers decided to lead a RO into the decision of an AD...unless there was a target within the 10 ft area. If there weren't any targets near the point of impact and as a RO watching the gun...you need to decide if it was in fact an AD. Was the gun high enough for the shooter to see the sights or was it lower? If lower, it would enforce the requirement for an AD.

Just my 2 cents worth.

There is no rule requiring me to use sights.

Ok fair enough...let me re-phrase...did the gun come up in line between the shooters eye and the target (thus a bad shot) or was the gun still below the eye-to-target line of sight with his/her finger in the trigger (AD)?

[JThompson]

At what point do you not worry about where the bullet impacted, and DQ the shooter for 10.5?

The targets were only a few feet from the impact point.

No DQ with a target inside of 10ft of the shooter unless it's an AD or USG.

JT

You might want to rethink that one, grasshopper.

Troy

Perhaps, I should have said, "Any paper target."

JT

Edited December 8, 2010 by JThompson

[Singlestack]

I think the point of the rule is to enforce the safety aspect of drawing a loaded weapon. If the shooter draws his pistol, and puts his/her finger in the trigger before the sights line up, the pistol may go bang...unintentional or accidental discharge. Or if he/she was moving while drawing and again the gun goes bang. Unsafe gun handling skills either way you look at it.

I think the 10 ft rule is the way the rule makers decided to lead a RO into the decision of an AD...unless there was a target within the 10 ft area. If there weren't any targets near the point of impact and as a RO watching the gun...you need to decide if it was in fact an AD. Was the gun high enough for the shooter to see the sights or was it lower? If lower, it would enforce the requirement for an AD.

Just my 2 cents worth.

There is no rule requiring me to use sights.

Ok fair enough...let me re-phrase...did the gun come up in line between the shooters eye and the target (thus a bad shot) or was the gun still below the eye-to-target line of sight with his/her finger in the trigger (AD)?

Again... there is no rule that says I can't shoot from the hip.

[Mark R]

I think the point of the rule is to enforce the safety aspect of drawing a loaded weapon. If the shooter draws his pistol, and puts his/her finger in the trigger before the sights line up, the pistol may go bang...unintentional or accidental discharge. Or if he/she was moving while drawing and again the gun goes bang. Unsafe gun handling skills either way you look at it.

I think the 10 ft rule is the way the rule makers decided to lead a RO into the decision of an AD...unless there was a target within the 10 ft area. If there weren't any targets near the point of impact and as a RO watching the gun...you need to decide if it was in fact an AD. Was the gun high enough for the shooter to see the sights or was it lower? If lower, it would enforce the requirement for an AD.

Just my 2 cents worth.

There is no rule requiring me to use sights.

Ok fair enough...let me re-phrase...did the gun come up in line between the shooters eye and the target (thus a bad shot) or was the gun still below the eye-to-target line of sight with his/her finger in the trigger (AD)?

Again... there is no rule that says I can't shoot from the hip.

Well, ya got me there ....ha lol. Guess my next question is...Would you? Shoot from the hip that is?

[spanky]

I think the point of the rule is to enforce the safety aspect of drawing a loaded weapon. If the shooter draws his pistol, and puts his/her finger in the trigger before the sights line up, the pistol may go bang...unintentional or accidental discharge. Or if he/she was moving while drawing and again the gun goes bang. Unsafe gun handling skills either way you look at it.

I think the 10 ft rule is the way the rule makers decided to lead a RO into the decision of an AD...unless there was a target within the 10 ft area. If there weren't any targets near the point of impact and as a RO watching the gun...you need to decide if it was in fact an AD. Was the gun high enough for the shooter to see the sights or was it lower? If lower, it would enforce the requirement for an AD.

Just my 2 cents worth.

There is no rule requiring me to use sights.

Ok fair enough...let me re-phrase...did the gun come up in line between the shooters eye and the target (thus a bad shot) or was the gun still below the eye-to-target line of sight with his/her finger in the trigger (AD)?

Again... there is no rule that says I can't shoot from the hip.

Well, ya got me there ....ha lol. Guess my next question is...Would you? Shoot from the hip that is?

Maybe not "from the hip" but ive shot from retention many many times. Training and matches. Obviously mostly training but that's mainly because not many stages provide that option.

[Skydiver]

As I recall, somebody posted video in the forums of Brian Enos drawing and hitting his first (steel) target even before completely building his grip. From what I recall the gun was still at chest level and not yet at eye-level, but my search-fu is weak and I can't find the video to watch it again.

Anyway the point being that the shooter doesn't have to be looking down the sights or along the frame of the gun, or the shooter's arm to be engaging a target.

The rules simply talks a round that strikes the ground within 10 feet of the competitor.

There is the interesting question posted by the OP of where does one start measuring from. I would follow the 10.5.17 on how to make the measurement:

10.5.17 A shot fired at a metal target from a distance of less than 23 feet, measured from the face of the target to the nearest part of the competitor’s body in contact with the ground (see Rule 2.1.3).

[kevin c]

A concrete example dealt with by the senior officials of NROI:

At this year's Nationals I witnessed a shot on the draw that impacted inside the shooting area, about half way between the target array and the shooter. The competitor was stopped immediately, the CRO drew a line at the toe of the competitor's foot nearest to the impact point, and called the RM. The impact point was also ID'd and marked off. The RM tape measured the distance to maybe a couple of inches over ten feet, and the competitor got a reshoot and some ribbing from his squad.

[Singlestack]

I think the point of the rule is to enforce the safety aspect of drawing a loaded weapon. If the shooter draws his pistol, and puts his/her finger in the trigger before the sights line up, the pistol may go bang...unintentional or accidental discharge. Or if he/she was moving while drawing and again the gun goes bang. Unsafe gun handling skills either way you look at it.

I think the 10 ft rule is the way the rule makers decided to lead a RO into the decision of an AD...unless there was a target within the 10 ft area. If there weren't any targets near the point of impact and as a RO watching the gun...you need to decide if it was in fact an AD. Was the gun high enough for the shooter to see the sights or was it lower? If lower, it would enforce the requirement for an AD.

Just my 2 cents worth.

There is no rule requiring me to use sights.

Ok fair enough...let me re-phrase...did the gun come up in line between the shooters eye and the target (thus a bad shot) or was the gun still below the eye-to-target line of sight with his/her finger in the trigger (AD)?

Again... there is no rule that says I can't shoot from the hip.

Well, ya got me there ....ha lol. Guess my next question is...Would you? Shoot from the hip that is?

Not on purpose in a match.

I have fired rounds in a match without looking at my sights though. My scores prove it!

[spanky]

A concrete example dealt with by the senior officials of NROI:

At this year's Nationals I witnessed a shot on the draw that impacted inside the shooting area, about half way between the target array and the shooter. The competitor was stopped immediately, the CRO drew a line at the toe of the competitor's foot nearest to the impact point, and called the RM. The impact point was also ID'd and marked off. The RM tape measured the distance to maybe a couple of inches over ten feet, and the competitor got a reshoot and some ribbing from his squad.

I can see that. However, how do you measure when their foot is on a fault line? Their toes aren't touching the ground, obviously.

[Singlestack]

A concrete example dealt with by the senior officials of NROI:

At this year's Nationals I witnessed a shot on the draw that impacted inside the shooting area, about half way between the target array and the shooter. The competitor was stopped immediately, the CRO drew a line at the toe of the competitor's foot nearest to the impact point, and called the RM. The impact point was also ID'd and marked off. The RM tape measured the distance to maybe a couple of inches over ten feet, and the competitor got a reshoot and some ribbing from his squad.

I can see that. However, how do you measure when their foot is on a fault line? Their toes aren't touching the ground, obviously.

In that case I would just use the fault line.

[JAFO]

I can see that. However, how do you measure when their foot is on a fault line? Their toes aren't touching the ground, obviously.

In that case I would just use the fault line.

I'd still maintain that this is a safety-related rule for a possible DQ, not a procedural, so the fault line is not an issue. The distance should be measured to the closest point of the competitor, which is most likely the toes even if they're standing on a fault line. 10.4.2 says "within 10 feet of the competitor", it doesn't say "in contact with the ground" like 10.5.17 does. I'm guessing that 10.5.17 is stated that way so you don't get DQ'd for leaning forward of a barrier that's 23' from a metal target.

Edited December 8, 2010 by JAFO

[Singlestack]

We are talking about a place to measure from. Unless the competitor is standing there in the exact position he was in I only have the place where his feet were. If they were on the fault line, thats close enough. I can't guess how far his toes were hanging over or how far his chest was leaning over.

[Nik Habicht]

I think the point of the rule is to enforce the safety aspect of drawing a loaded weapon. If the shooter draws his pistol, and puts his/her finger in the trigger before the sights line up, the pistol may go bang...unintentional or accidental discharge. Or if he/she was moving while drawing and again the gun goes bang. Unsafe gun handling skills either way you look at it.

I think the 10 ft rule is the way the rule makers decided to lead a RO into the decision of an AD...unless there was a target within the 10 ft area. If there weren't any targets near the point of impact and as a RO watching the gun...you need to decide if it was in fact an AD. Was the gun high enough for the shooter to see the sights or was it lower? If lower, it would enforce the requirement for an AD.

Just my 2 cents worth.

There is no rule requiring me to use sights.

Ok fair enough...let me re-phrase...did the gun come up in line between the shooters eye and the target (thus a bad shot) or was the gun still below the eye-to-target line of sight with his/her finger in the trigger (AD)?

Again... there is no rule that says I can't shoot from the hip.

Well, ya got me there ....ha lol. Guess my next question is...Would you? Shoot from the hip that is?

I have...... :devil:

.....through a low barrel, with a laser, while shooting in Open Division with a laser equipped carry gun, to wring it out in a match.... :P

[Nik Habicht]

A concrete example dealt with by the senior officials of NROI:

At this year's Nationals I witnessed a shot on the draw that impacted inside the shooting area, about half way between the target array and the shooter. The competitor was stopped immediately, the CRO drew a line at the toe of the competitor's foot nearest to the impact point, and called the RM. The impact point was also ID'd and marked off. The RM tape measured the distance to maybe a couple of inches over ten feet, and the competitor got a reshoot and some ribbing from his squad.

I can see that. However, how do you measure when their foot is on a fault line? Their toes aren't touching the ground, obviously.

You attempt to mark a position on the ground that a perpendicular to the ground plane would touch, if the flat of the plane was also touching the part of the body closest to the impact....

So in this case, a line would be drawn from the tip of their toe to the impact point. (Probably the biggest issue for me would be if the measurement was very close to 10 feet, because it is often difficult to accurately mark where feet and bullet impacts are. Thankfully, this doesn't come up often -- and I know a couple of RMs....)

[Singlestack]

A concrete example dealt with by the senior officials of NROI:

At this year's Nationals I witnessed a shot on the draw that impacted inside the shooting area, about half way between the target array and the shooter. The competitor was stopped immediately, the CRO drew a line at the toe of the competitor's foot nearest to the impact point, and called the RM. The impact point was also ID'd and marked off. The RM tape measured the distance to maybe a couple of inches over ten feet, and the competitor got a reshoot and some ribbing from his squad.

I can see that. However, how do you measure when their foot is on a fault line? Their toes aren't touching the ground, obviously.

You attempt to mark a position on the ground that a perpendicular to the ground plane would touch, if the flat of the plane was also touching the part of the body closest to the impact....

So in this case, a line would be drawn from the tip of their toe to the impact point. (Probably the biggest issue for me would be if the measurement was very close to 10 feet, because it is often difficult to accurately mark where feet and bullet impacts are. Thankfully, this doesn't come up often -- and I know a couple of RMs....)

How in the heck are you going to know where the tip of their toe was if it was not on the ground? You aren't. Your guessing and thats wrong. Just like trying to guess where the chest was.

[spanky]

A concrete example dealt with by the senior officials of NROI:

At this year's Nationals I witnessed a shot on the draw that impacted inside the shooting area, about half way between the target array and the shooter. The competitor was stopped immediately, the CRO drew a line at the toe of the competitor's foot nearest to the impact point, and called the RM. The impact point was also ID'd and marked off. The RM tape measured the distance to maybe a couple of inches over ten feet, and the competitor got a reshoot and some ribbing from his squad.

I can see that. However, how do you measure when their foot is on a fault line? Their toes aren't touching the ground, obviously.

You attempt to mark a position on the ground that a perpendicular to the ground plane would touch, if the flat of the plane was also touching the part of the body closest to the impact....

So in this case, a line would be drawn from the tip of their toe to the impact point. (Probably the biggest issue for me would be if the measurement was very close to 10 feet, because it is often difficult to accurately mark where feet and bullet impacts are. Thankfully, this doesn't come up often -- and I know a couple of RMs....)

How in the heck are you going to know where the tip of their toe was if it was not on the ground? You aren't. Your guessing and thats wrong. Just like trying to guess where the chest was.

Then how do you measure where their foot was on the fault line?

[bbbean]

At some point, you have to quit trying to count the angels dancing in the head of the pin and make a judgment call. Obviously there is more than one idea about exactly where "the shooter" is when we say "within 10' of the shooter". The fault line? Some point in the air where the toes were? The chest? The hands? It seems to me the RO and RM are going to need more than a tape measure to resolve this one.

[Nik Habicht]

A concrete example dealt with by the senior officials of NROI:

At this year's Nationals I witnessed a shot on the draw that impacted inside the shooting area, about half way between the target array and the shooter. The competitor was stopped immediately, the CRO drew a line at the toe of the competitor's foot nearest to the impact point, and called the RM. The impact point was also ID'd and marked off. The RM tape measured the distance to maybe a couple of inches over ten feet, and the competitor got a reshoot and some ribbing from his squad.

I can see that. However, how do you measure when their foot is on a fault line? Their toes aren't touching the ground, obviously.

You attempt to mark a position on the ground that a perpendicular to the ground plane would touch, if the flat of the plane was also touching the part of the body closest to the impact....

So in this case, a line would be drawn from the tip of their toe to the impact point. (Probably the biggest issue for me would be if the measurement was very close to 10 feet, because it is often difficult to accurately mark where feet and bullet impacts are. Thankfully, this doesn't come up often -- and I know a couple of RMs....)

How in the heck are you going to know where the tip of their toe was if it was not on the ground? You aren't. Your guessing and thats wrong. Just like trying to guess where the chest was.

So, you trust me to make a mark where their foot was if it's level on the ground, but if their foot was on fault line hanging over the ground, you don't trust me to figure that out? And you trust me to mark the bullet impact? This simply isn't hard. I look down and see half your foot sticking over the fault line, I'll be able to come close to replicating that. (And please note that I'd be most troubled by a measurement close to 10 feet, whether that turns out to be 9'10" or 10'2". The call's much easier to make with a 6 or 14, or even 9 or 11 feet measurement).

[Nik Habicht]

Also, keep in mind, that whenever shooters are near fault lines, it doesn't take more than a split second from any RO to determine whether or not a shooter is faulting. This -- not much harder.....

[Singlestack]

A concrete example dealt with by the senior officials of NROI:

At this year's Nationals I witnessed a shot on the draw that impacted inside the shooting area, about half way between the target array and the shooter. The competitor was stopped immediately, the CRO drew a line at the toe of the competitor's foot nearest to the impact point, and called the RM. The impact point was also ID'd and marked off. The RM tape measured the distance to maybe a couple of inches over ten feet, and the competitor got a reshoot and some ribbing from his squad.

I can see that. However, how do you measure when their foot is on a fault line? Their toes aren't touching the ground, obviously.

You attempt to mark a position on the ground that a perpendicular to the ground plane would touch, if the flat of the plane was also touching the part of the body closest to the impact....

So in this case, a line would be drawn from the tip of their toe to the impact point. (Probably the biggest issue for me would be if the measurement was very close to 10 feet, because it is often difficult to accurately mark where feet and bullet impacts are. Thankfully, this doesn't come up often -- and I know a couple of RMs....)

How in the heck are you going to know where the tip of their toe was if it was not on the ground? You aren't. Your guessing and thats wrong. Just like trying to guess where the chest was.

So, you trust me to make a mark where their foot was if it's level on the ground, but if their foot was on fault line hanging over the ground, you don't trust me to figure that out? And you trust me to mark the bullet impact? This simply isn't hard. I look down and see half your foot sticking over the fault line, I'll be able to come close to replicating that. (And please note that I'd be most troubled by a measurement close to 10 feet, whether that turns out to be 9'10" or 10'2". The call's much easier to make with a 6 or 14, or even 9 or 11 feet measurement).

I can live with that line of thinking.

[Nik Habicht]

I knew eventually I'd think out loud long enough that you'd come around..... :P

[spanky]

Yeah, that was my concern. Toes were at 9'10" and fault line that he was standing on was about 10'2" or so.

Edited December 9, 2010 by spanky

[kevin c]

Hmm, now I have an objection.

First, an observation on the incident I saw: the shooter's strong arm and hand were beyond his feet when the shot in question broke. Their positions were not measureable after the necessary ULASC. Generalizing from this, I'd say it's more concrete to measure from the shooter's nearest contact with the ground than to try and literally pull a measurement out of thin air.

More pertinent to fault lines, I've never encountered one, including forward limit lines for the safe shooting of steel, that were considered violated by any part of the body hovering over or beyond such. It's only if there is contact beyond the line when the shot breaks that a violation has occurred, no? Wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't that also apply the the OP's example of the foot on the fault line? Seems to me that the closest point of contact to the bullet impact is the near edge of the fault line.

I guess it boils down to whether, in making the call, the RM is willing to use a more concrete measurement vs one that is more subjective. From either the RM/CRO perspective or the shooter's, I'd prefer something less subjective.

Edited December 11, 2010 by kevin c