Ammunition Storage in a Safe

[JAFO]

I'm not sure if this belongs in this section, but it's kind of related to the Fire Safety thread pinned above.

I have a Cannon fire safe, rated for 1200 degrees at 30 minutes. According to Cannon's website, their safes don't reach 350 ^oF on the inside over the rated time period. I currently have a fair amount of ammunition (rifle, handgun, and some shotshell) stored in the bottom of my safe and I got to wondering whether that will detonate at or near 350 ^oF. Does anyone at what low-end temperature primers detonate and/or powders combust? I'm not as concerned with projectiles flying through the walls of the safe as I am of the collateral damage to what's inside. I originally stored it in there more for the security aspect then fire protection, but it doesn't seem like saving the other items in there from the flames will do me much good if everything is shredded from brass and lead fragments.

Thanks.

[High Lord Gomer]

I did see a Mythbusters episode where they tried to ignite ammo in an oven...

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[Merlin Orr]

You need to buy more guns to take up that extra room in the safe.....

Store your ammo in a locker......

[George Post]

I have second hand info as it was my brother who had the house fire.

First off when ammunition cooks off, it usually blows out the case wall sending bits of brass case flying while the rest of the round flops around. Separating guns from ammo with a sheet of plywood or any wooded shelf would probably be enough to protect it from that aspect of a fire.

But if your safe got hot enough to cook off ammo, I don't think any wood on your guns would survive. More importantly if your safe got that hot, I belive it might change the temper of the steel and your guns probably will be unsafe to shoot. I don't know if I would take the word insurance adjuster on that. Maybe a gunsmith would know if they could be saved.

[AlamoShooter]

I don't think I would care if the ammo cooked off in the safe in a fire. the optics on the guns would be trashed any way.

[COMATZD]

Isn't the point of having a fire-rated gun safe to have your guns survive a fire? I'd be pretty pissed off if my firearms were worthless after a fire, I might as well lock them up in a closet and let them burn...

[calishootr]

fire rated safes dont 'protect' whatever is inside completely, they keep the level of heat lower longer, so that hopefully when the fire dept comes to put it out, whatever is in the safe will be...ok...lets face it, wooden stocks in a high heat situation wont survive, and how many coats of varnish is on em???(read solvent in of itself???) and here is somthing to think of, in the event the ammo inthe safe does startt o 'cook-off' the fire dept may back off and lets things burn out rather than risk injury to their personnel...

case in point, a welding accident sparked a fire on one of our berms at the range, fire was quick to respond, buuuut because people were in the habit of tossing 'dud' rounds into the berm, andthey started to cook off, the fire boys backed off and let it burn....granted it was a impact berm and not a house....

[smokshwn]

Isn't the point of having a fire-rated gun safe to have your guns survive a fire? I'd be pretty pissed off if my firearms were worthless after a fire, I might as well lock them up in a closet and let them burn...

Bingo! insure the hell out of em and buy new ones. I have fifteen years as a professional fireman and I have seen more than one gun collection destroyed in a fire rated safe. YMMV

FWIW ammo and fireworks cooking off in a fire have never really bothered me but a can of hairspray exploding in a room with you is a whole nother experience

Edited December 8, 2010 by smokshwn

[John Wayne]

God bless our Firefighters, each and every one!

John Wayne

[MarkCO]

I have over 15 years as a forensic engineer, often investigating fires and explosions. I too have seen some pretty trashed guns in "fire-rated" safes. I have seen ammo in safes where the guns were pretty trashed, mostly wood, plastic and scopes, but the ammo did not detonate. If you have any lubed lead slugs, the powder will be fouled. While I would not recomend storing ammo in the safe, I have no evidence to suggest it is dangerous.

While most of my firearms are in a good "fire-rated" safe, it is more of the preventing access to them than frie protection. They are also insured on a rider to my homeowners.

HOWEVER, don't store powder or primers in your safe. The concentration of energy is more dense and as such to potential is far greater for a boom.

POWDER: Bob Good (past gun writer and famous handgun hunter) had 1 pound of powder stored in his safe. Without getting into the nitty-gritty, the combination of paper, an electric dehumidifier and the gunpowder led to an unfortunate event. The safe (high quality BTW) exploded and caused significant structural damage to the house. No fire ensued afterwards, so we were able to figure out what happened. I have four more gunpowder/safe explosions, but this was one of the worst. When the powder manufacturer was "released" from the suit they offered a "lifetime supply" of gunpowder. However, it would have been unethical to accept the offer. Anyway, never put gunpowder in anything that can contain pressure!

PRIMERS: Middle of Nebraska, guy has 5K primers in his safe in his bedroom on the second floor. Fire damages the house and the safe falls into the basement, 21 feet onto concrete. ALL of the primers detonate. Safe contains it, but the inside was more like confetti than guns. Everything except the steel parts were totally shredded. While I think this was an oddity, I still think primers should not be stored in "potential pressure vessels."

From my experience and observations...Put your safe as low as you can reasonably put it in your house in a location that will maintain constant ambient temperature. Place it in a corner or near a solid (preferally fire-rocked or concrete) wall. Use dessicants, not electric dehumidifiers. Keep ignition sources away from powder and primers. I've done some metallurgical testing on fire exposed firearms, in safes and out. In the safe, I have yet to find one with any change in the steel properties. When not in a fire safe, they all had metallurgical changes. Except for the plastic buttstock melting, the two ARs I have tested that were in a fire safe ran like tops with just the replacement of the stock asembly. The steel 1911s were in pretty good shape as well. The wood stocked rifles were boiled, cleaned and restocked. The XDs were replaced, total loss.

Strange enough, I've had more firearms pointed at me on fire scenes when some "not a gun guy" investigator has waved around a gun he found on site. When one not so bright individual swore up and down that since it had been in a fire, it was safe, I asked the fire marshall to test it. The round in the chamber did fire.

[Bigpops]

Great info!

I have two safes, one large and one smaller model. Until recently I used the smaller one to store my powder. Living in a high humidity area, wanting a secure environment, I never really gave it much thought. A good friend of mine showed me some pictures of a shooters reloading/gun shop that burned. I was shocked by the results, mostly the safe that became a bomb due to the pressures that were created.

I have since moved the powders to a cabinet that will allow for pressure relief in case of a fire.

Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge.

[JAFO]

Thanks for the replies and experiences, guys. I keep my powder and primers in a cabinet under the reloading bench. The door is only held shut with a magnet, so it should blow open fairly easily to relieve pressure should that all go up. I guess I'll get on moving the ammo as well.

[AlamoShooter]

I had 5000 primers in my safe last year, the primers were worth more than some of the guns. Thanks I will remove them even though the safe is on a concrete floor

[MarkCO]

Just for clarification, the cases in which the guns were in bad shape in a fire safe were predominantly what we call "grounders" in that the house burned to the ground. Just a hole of ash was left. Most of these were far away from fire depratments, probably most of them were volunteer. One I did last year in Kansas on a farm only had one wall and a chimney left. The mortor in the joints had failed and a light tug pulled down the whole thing. Burned for about 80 minutes prior to the first water.

So, yes, I HAVE seen house fires, with limited damage, where the fire safe certainly offered full protection to the guns inside wheras outside they would have had some damage. If you live IN the city with a full-time fire department, that fire safe will probably be enough offer your firearms protection in the event of a fire.

[George Post]

Thanks to MarkCO, great information!

If you had somewhere between 5000 and 10,000 primers and somewhere between 4 and 20 lbs of smokeless powder, how would you store it at your house?

George

[MarkCO]

Thanks to MarkCO, great information!

If you had somewhere between 5000 and 10,000 primers and somewhere between 4 and 20 lbs of smokeless powder, how would you store it at your house?

George

I'd probably put it in a "pantry" style cupboard, 18" wide, 6' tall and 24" deep. Powder on the bottom and primers on the top. Surround it 1/2" wood plywood covered by 5/8" fire-rock. That essentially makes 3 pieces of material including the cabinet, with small airgaps around a "powder magazine." I would keep anything electrical or hot away from the front where the non-latched doors can freely open. As for location, I'd make sure that it is away from the stairs, exits, etc, preferably at the end of the room near an exterior wall. I'd probably harden, seal, and alarm the room, but provide a releif vent into a garage or outside.

[Bigpops]

Thanks to MarkCO, great information!

If you had somewhere between 5000 and 10,000 primers and somewhere between 4 and 20 lbs of smokeless powder, how would you store it at your house?

George

I'd probably put it in a "pantry" style cupboard, 18" wide, 6' tall and 24" deep. Powder on the bottom and primers on the top. Surround it 1/2" wood plywood covered by 5/8" fire-rock. That essentially makes 3 pieces of material including the cabinet, with small airgaps around a "powder magazine." I would keep anything electrical or hot away from the front where the non-latched doors can freely open. As for location, I'd make sure that it is away from the stairs, exits, etc, preferably at the end of the room near an exterior wall. I'd probably harden, seal, and alarm the room, but provide a releif vent into a garage or outside.

And if you had everything in a detached garage?

[Zebp45]

Thanks for the info. Looks like I need to do some safe cleaning.

[MarkCO]

And if you had everything in a detached garage?

Garages and gunpowder, in general don't mix well. A very large percentage of house fires originate in garages. Also, the nature of gunpowder, having both a fuel and oxidizer, have some very bad reactions to some common chemicals found in typical garages. No, I won't tell you what they are, but beleive me when I say that the reactions can be nasty, and exothermic. Personally, I will NEVER put primers or gunpowder in a garage.

If by detached garage, you mean a shed without the common chemicals and ignition sources found in garages, then it is just a shed and the same steps as laid out for a house would be appropriate.

[Bigpops]

And if you had everything in a detached garage?

Garages and gunpowder, in general don't mix well. A very large percentage of house fires originate in garages. Also, the nature of gunpowder, having both a fuel and oxidizer, have some very bad reactions to some common chemicals found in typical garages. No, I won't tell you what they are, but beleive me when I say that the reactions can be nasty, and exothermic. Personally, I will NEVER put primers or gunpowder in a garage.

If by detached garage, you mean a shed without the common chemicals and ignition sources found in garages, then it is just a shed and the same steps as laid out for a house would be appropriate.

Geez..you are raining on my parade!

All kidding aside, I have an entire section in my garage setup for reloading and gun storage. Like most HUGE garages I do not keep my vehicles in them unless the weather is real bad.

No chemicals, fuels or solvents are anywhere near this area.

[MarkCO]

Geez..you are raining on my parade!

All kidding aside, I have an entire section in my garage setup for reloading and gun storage. Like most HUGE garages I do not keep my vehicles in them unless the weather is real bad.

No chemicals, fuels or solvents are anywhere near this area.

Sorry for the rain. Technically everything is a "chemcial." By common chemicals, I mean oils, solvents, fuels, pesticides, paint, pool chemcials etc. that one may expect to see in a garage.

You do have to realize that I am kind of like a heart surgeon talking to you about your heart I have never seen. Heart surgeons see "bad" hearts, so they are inclined to think everyone's ticker is about to explode or collapse. I spend my days looking at, and analyzing failures, most of them with a good component of human error. I say this to give you the "grain of salt." I am a "safety guy" and it comes naturally to me to see and evaluate potential risks. If common sense becomes more common, my workload may be reduced!

Practice some good housekeeping and common sense and you will likely be fine. IF you are concerned about your particular set-up, change it.

[Bigpops]

Geez..you are raining on my parade!

All kidding aside, I have an entire section in my garage setup for reloading and gun storage. Like most HUGE garages I do not keep my vehicles in them unless the weather is real bad.

No chemicals, fuels or solvents are anywhere near this area.

Sorry for the rain. Technically everything is a "chemcial." By common chemicals, I mean oils, solvents, fuels, pesticides, paint, pool chemcials etc. that one may expect to see in a garage.

You do have to realize that I am kind of like a heart surgeon talking to you about your heart I have never seen. Heart surgeons see "bad" hearts, so they are inclined to think everyone's ticker is about to explode or collapse. I spend my days looking at, and analyzing failures, most of them with a good component of human error. I say this to give you the "grain of salt." I am a "safety guy" and it comes naturally to me to see and evaluate potential risks. If common sense becomes more common, my workload may be reduced!

Practice some good housekeeping and common sense and you will likely be fine. IF you are concerned about your particular set-up, change it.

I truly do appreciate your input/advice. I understand where you’re coming from and now realize I too gave you a generic feel for my garage. Let’s just say…I’m a neat freak! I’m sure some other B.E. forums folks will chime in to verify this!

The “garage” should be called a gun room/workshop. When I think of the word garage I also picture gas cans, cabinets full of stuff, old magazines, the Christmas tree box, etc. My “man cave” is nowhere close to this picture.

As I stated earlier my biggest concern was the powder and primer storage. I was a little ignorant with this (make that a lot) by storing it in a safe. I have since moved them to a cabinet that can bleed off pressure should the need present itself.

I live in Southern Maryland. Our summers are very humid and our winters are so so. I do have a concern regarding static build up from time to time but our location near the water tends to provide enough moisture in the air to alleviate this problem.

I am also trying to keep the stockpile of components to a minimum. Supporting two shooters and experiencing this past summers primer shortage has made me leery though.

Again, thanks for sharing your experience!

Steve

[MarkCO]

I do have a concern regarding static build up from time to time but our location near the water tends to provide enough moisture in the air to alleviate this problem.

Sounds like in general, you have it in hand.

Since we're on a roll, I take a poke at "Static" sparks. I have been involved in purposeful explosions of pressure vessels, houses, boats, cars, fireplaces, water heaters, and other "items" with a variety of instrumentation. We filled containers with stoichiometric concentations of gasoline vapors, propane and natural gas and tried to ignite them with static sparks. We rubbed a lot of plastic rods with wool and other materials and generated thousands of volts, which I might add hurt pretty bad when you got zapped, however, we could not get most of the gas mixtures to ignite. Of course we had to use the Jacobs ladder to ignite them so we did not bleed of combustible mixtures.

For combustion (which preceeds deflagration and detonation in a chemcical reaction), you need more than an igniteable substance and a source of energy at or over the ignition temperature. The FUEL, has to have the temperature elevated. Static sparks in almost all standard environmental conditions, lack the time component to raise the fuel to the proper temperatures to initiate ignition from a static spark. This is unilaterally true. While we could not get natural gas and propane to ignite with a static spark, we could easily with gasoline vapor. For solids, such as gunpowder and primers, you just have too much thermal mass to heat the solid to the temperature required to cause ignition.

Now, who is going to be first to call me a geek? Jamie, where are you, you owe me one.

Edited December 9, 2010 by MarkCO

[fastmtnbiker33w]

It seems that keeping everything in a specific room and equipping that room with a sprinkler system may be more affordable than dealing with the damage of explosives and ruined firearms.

Edited December 9, 2010 by fastmtnbiker33w

[JAFO]

It seems that keeping everything in a specific room and equipping that room with a sprinkler system may be more affordable than dealing with the damage of explosives and ruined firearms.

You'd be trading the effects of a fire for those of a flood, but I suppose it's the lesser of two nightmares.