Get rid of the jams! 9mm 124LRN problems

[ShrinkMD]

I have been having problems getting my 9mm reloads to run in a 952 as well as a M&P9c. They all seem to do fine in my 5906TSW, for what it's worth.

So far, I have been loading Dardascast 124LRN (.356) in CBC brass (which I have plenty of), and I was having jams which would lock up the pistol, requiring a dowel to whack the stuck round out.

When the brass is first resized, it drops into the case gauge or chamber perfectly. After seating the bullet and crimping, however, the loaded rounds do not drop in all the way (I even lowered the OAL to 1.075, but still had the problem) Then, after reading the forums, I bought the EGW undersize die, and made up some dummy rounds. Using the same piece of brass, the ones sized with the EGW seemed to fit in a little easier (although still not dropping easily in and out) than the cases sized with my Hornady sizer die. I made up some dummies at around 1.111, and the same problem was happening. These rounds fit into the LE Wilson case gauge and the pistol barrels, but they needed a little nudging to seat fully. I tried running them through the magazine, and they did load into the gun, but then again my other tries seemed to do that, but malfunctioned at the range with live loads.

I've read that running things through the Lee FCD is putting a band-aid on a problem, and that I need to figure out my seating/crimping/bullet problem instead.

Can someone point me to a concise guide to troubleshooting this type of load, or post a bit here? I've been getting really frustrated with this, but I don't want to give up. My loads in 40 and 45acp have always run flawlessly in other pistols, so I am not a total newbie reloader, but the 9mm is giving me a hard time in these 2 pistols. I guess if I only shot the 5906 I'd be happier...

Thanks!

[G-ManBart]

If the resized cases drop in the gauge or chamber freely, it has to be the bullet/crimp causing the problem. What are you using for a crimp size? Generally speaking, you want the bullet diameter (measured, not listed) plus two times the thickness of the case wall, right at the mouth. So, for a typical 9mm load, something like .375-.378' give or take depending on the exact bullet and case mouth thickness. R,

[gng4life]

I agree with G-man...measure the case mouth after you have loaded the cartridge and let us know what that is. Do you see any lead or grease building up around the mouth after it's seated/crimped? I use to have that problem when I loaded lead and it caused a similar issue.

Let us know...

[Pat Miles]

Build yourself a couple of dummy rounds, bullet and brass only. NO powder or primer. Drop one in the barrel and if necessary give it a nudge with a small mallet or such to fully seat the cartridge. Now, with a wood dowel down the muzzle force the dummy round out. Are there any shiny engraving marks on the bullet where the bullet might be being forced into the lands? Probably not but only takes a minute to check this.

Pat

[Darrell]

Sounds more like you have the bullet ojive hitting the rifling. Crimp to .375" and seat a bullet at 1.100. Drop it in the barrel and see if you can turn it freely with your fingers, if not seat the bullet deeper in .005 increments and repeat until you can freely twist the round in the barrel. Some 124rn bullets are so blunt that the ojive is further up and hit the rifling to early. If you are having to push the slide in with your thumbs that could be the case. I've seen lots of people have the same problem at our range with their reloads and once we got the OAL correct for that bullet, they quit having issues. I have one bullet that has to be loaded so short, .995 that it doesn't feed reliably in my EAA Limited, but does work in my M&P and CZ. You can also check max OAL by using the wooden dowel method in this thread http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=117639

Edited November 25, 2010 by Darrell

[DWFAN]

If these have the same profile as the Missouri Bullet 124/5 LRN, then what Darrell describes is probably your problem. I cant run that bullet in my M&P or CZ at lengths I like to load.

Ive switched to BBI 147gr Moly lead for my non-jacketed rounds. Their 130gr is the same profile and works well in my M&P/CZ also.

Edited November 25, 2010 by DWFAN

[Size 10]

If these have the same profile as the Missouri Bullet 124/5 LRN, then what Darrell describes is probably your problem. I cant run that bullet in my M&P or CZ at lengths I like to load.

Ive switched to BBI 147gr Moly lead for my non-jacketed rounds. Their 130gr is the same profile and works well in my M&P/CZ also.

The dowel rod method will work..I have some Missouri bullets 125gr LRN's I was having a awful time trying to find a OAL that would work in my P-2000,At least using this method I have somewhere to start..In the case of the Missoiur bullets, forget using a case gage to help find a OAL, you'll have to use the barrel of what you intend to run them through. Using my gage (dillon) They would'nt drop in until the dummy was seated at 1.030... I'm still on the fence with MBC, and their odd bullets, If I don't have any problems and accuracy is good in my P-2000, and in my M&P (using the same OAL) I'll probably buy more, If not,I'll write it off as a learning experience, and move on..

[DWFAN]

The MBC 147s are great.. i just dont like the profile of the 124.

[ShrinkMD]

Ok, I just did some more playing around, and it looks like 1.065" drops in nicely into the 952 barrel, and pretty much as well into the M&P9c barrel. With a gentle tap, the dummy round will fall out of the 952, but the M&P9c still needs a drop of coaxing to come out again. I'm a little uncomfortable loading this OAL, though. The Lyman 49th lists 1.065 as the minimum on a similar bullet. I just want to make safe plinking ammo, although I would like to practice at 25 yds with the 952 more for trying to work on my Bullseye skills. I guess at some point the ammo would be the limiting factor, but I'll worry about that when it happens.

I previously loaded 3.4gr of Bullseye with a CCI SP primer, or 5.0gr of Power Pistol. Would those still be obviously "safe" loads when loaded to 1.065", given that the last round or two coming off the press are sometimes a few thousandths shorter (from not having rounds in the sizing die) According to Lyman 49, those are the starting loads. Their bullet, #356242 has two driving bands, and is listed as 120 gr cast from #2 alloy, but the Dardascast 124lrn only has one driving band (see below). Also, he says his BHN is 16.

Lyman lists 4.2 of Bullseye and 5.6 of Power Pistol as the max loads for their bullet. Would I be safe working toward these charges, or given the short OAL I will be loading at to just stick with the starting at call it a day. I was hoping I could ladder the charges a bit and see if there is any SD/ES changes or accuracy difference in the loadings.

At the very least, it would be nice having the ammo run 100% without resorting to the Lee FCD (looks like it was an OAL problem after all, but given the range brass I'm picking up like a squirrel stocking up for winter, I guess the EGW U die is good insurance anyway, right?)

According to Quickload, using the profile for the .355 LEADEx RN (whatever brand that is) seated to 1.065", they predict 21096psi and 945 fps from a 4" barrel. The 4.2 load is listed in their magenta "caution zone" and the 4.3 turns it red for danger. For the Power Pistol loads, 5.0 gr yields 22989psi and 1004fps, and the listed max load of 5.6gr is 30934psi and 1125 fps.

Of course, if you change the program setting to 9mm+P these max loads are in the yellow or acceptable zone. Granted, I haven't measured the water capacity of my cases to correct the calculations, and of course I do not have the exact same bullet as they have listed.

I guess based on this little exploration, the 1.065 OAL looks like it matches Lyman 49th data, and would be safe to work up to their max loads, or just about.

In general, what fps for .356 lead 124 LRN bullets seems to be the most accurate? My 952 is the 6 inch barrel, so according to Quickload I might get a free speed boost of about 100 fps without adding extra powder.

I will make up a couple hundred of these at starting loads and see if I can these two pistols running well.

Edited November 25, 2010 by ShrinkMD

[Darrell]

Ok, I just did some more playing around, and it looks like 1.065" drops in nicely into the 952 barrel, and pretty much as well into the M&P9c barrel. With a gentle tap, the dummy round will fall out of the 952, but the M&P9c still needs a drop of coaxing to come out again. I'm a little uncomfortable loading this OAL, though. The Lyman 49th lists 1.065 as the minimum on a similar bullet. I just want to make safe plinking ammo, although I would like to practice at 25 yds with the 952 more for trying to work on my Bullseye skills. I guess at some point the ammo would be the limiting factor, but I'll worry about that when it happens.

I previously loaded 3.4gr of Bullseye with a CCI SP primer, or 5.0gr of Power Pistol. Would those still be obviously "safe" loads when loaded to 1.065", given that the last round or two coming off the press are sometimes a few thousandths shorter (from not having rounds in the sizing die) According to Lyman 49, those are the starting loads. Their bullet, #356242 has two driving bands, and is listed as 120 gr cast from #2 alloy, but the Dardascast 124lrn only has one driving band (see below). Also, he says his BHN is 16.

Lyman lists 4.2 of Bullseye and 5.6 of Power Pistol as the max loads for their bullet. Would I be safe working toward these charges, or given the short OAL I will be loading at to just stick with the starting at call it a day. I was hoping I could ladder the charges a bit and see if there is any SD/ES changes or accuracy difference in the loadings.

At the very least, it would be nice having the ammo run 100% without resorting to the Lee FCD (looks like it was an OAL problem after all, but given the range brass I'm picking up like a squirrel stocking up for winter, I guess the EGW U die is good insurance anyway, right?)

According to Quickload, using the profile for the .355 LEADEx RN (whatever brand that is) seated to 1.065", they predict 21096psi and 945 fps from a 4" barrel. The 4.2 load is listed in their magenta "caution zone" and the 4.3 turns it red for danger. For the Power Pistol loads, 5.0 gr yields 22989psi and 1004fps, and the listed max load of 5.6gr is 30934psi and 1125 fps.

Of course, if you change the program setting to 9mm+P these max loads are in the yellow or acceptable zone. Granted, I haven't measured the water capacity of my cases to correct the calculations, and of course I do not have the exact same bullet as they have listed.

I guess based on this little exploration, the 1.065 OAL looks like it matches Lyman 49th data, and would be safe to work up to their max loads, or just about.

In general, what fps for .356 lead 124 LRN bullets seems to be the most accurate? My 952 is the 6 inch barrel, so according to Quickload I might get a free speed boost of about 100 fps without adding extra powder.

I will make up a couple hundred of these at starting loads and see if I can these two pistols running well.

That bullet design has the ojive further forward than most other 125's, a blunt bullet like that is not as accurate as one with a longer bearing surface. I have a similar bullet that has to be loaded to .995 to clear the rifling. When you finish with those bullets, buy a better design that will allow you to load longer, a 125gr flat point will be more accurate than a 125 round nose also by the way. Here is a link to a better 125 rn. http://www.friendswoodbullet.com/9mm_125grain_RN/p132676_306869.aspx

The flat nose we are using is http://www.friendswoodbullet.com/9mm_125grain_FP/p132676_514602.aspx

Edited November 26, 2010 by Darrell

[Foxbat]

I bought the EGW undersize die,

Pure, 100%, waste of money.

[gng4life]

I bought the EGW undersize die,

Pure, 100%, waste of money.

I'm pretty sure you are in the minority with this opinion. I swear by them since after I switched to it in my .40 and 9mm, I don't have to chamber check anymore and I never have a case not seat due to bulge or extended bottom dimensions. Case sizing is clearly not the issue here so the EGW does not become a factor. However, I highly recommend it to those of us using range brass.

[Foxbat]

I bought the EGW undersize die,

Pure, 100%, waste of money.

I don't have to chamber check anymore and I never have a case not seat due to bulge or extended bottom dimensions.

Neither have I... you just have to adjust your normal dies correctly.

[ShrinkMD]

Speaking of the EGW die, the instructions from Lee said that the shell plate can bottom against the die. I thought that all carbide dies could NOT make any contact with the shellholder. Is it ok to let the die touch slightly?

[gng4life]

I do. Since I had so many problems with range brass and dropping in the case gauge, I tried all kinds of adjustments to no avail. I have even called Dillon to make sure I was adjusting my resizer correctly and I was told it was correct. I gave up and went to the EGW, it does slightly touch the plate, as did the Dillon die, but they come out so much better. Waa-laa, no tight case fits or sticking in over two years - and I've been reloading for 19. Go figure...

[Sal1950]

Speaking of the EGW die, the instructions from Lee said that the shell plate can bottom against the die. I thought that all carbide dies could NOT make any contact with the shellholder. Is it ok to let the die touch slightly?

It's fine to let a carbide die lightly touch the shell plate. The warnings come from the fact that carbide is so hard and can be cracked from too high a pressure against it. Not really a good idea to have any die put a large amount of pressure on a plate/holder, very hard on the press itself and accomplishes nothing. Once the die touches the plate, the case has fully entered the die it's not going any further into it no matter how much you crank the die down.

Sal

Edited November 26, 2010 by Sal1950

[Foxbat]

In all dies the point where the sizing starts is a few millimeters above their bottom edge - there is some radius in the carbide part, plus it is usually recessed some amount.

Bottom line - there is difference in the way different dies will treat the bottom portion of the case, when all adjusted the same way. Some will stop higher, some will extend the sizing a bit lower. That, in most cases, will explain the difference in how the rounds will then fit the guns - some dies will leave larger portion of the bulge behind. This has nothing to do with the diameter of the die being 1/1000" smaller or bigger. That is why EGW writes:

"These dies also flair lower than some other sizing dies and size the case further down,"

Edited November 26, 2010 by Foxbat

[ShrinkMD]

More problems and questions:

I loaded up 100 today, trying to get an OAL of 1.065. I am using the following equipment and supplies:

Hornady LNL AP Press

EGW U die

Hornady's new PTX Expander For Lead bullets

Powder Cop

Hornady 9mm seater (with the micrometer stem)

Hornady Taper Crimp die

CBC (Magtech) once fired brass from my gun

CCI SP

Power Pistol powder

and the Dardas 124LRN bullets pictured above

I noticed some odd things:

1) The OAL varied from 1.063 up to 1.075. I do not have this much variation from any other caliber I load (38/357, 40, 45) Of course, since the 9mm is tapered and the sizing die really has to work a little harder, I'm assuming this is causing the press to flex a bit more than normal, and not always repeatably.

2) OAL did not always correspond to a round which would drop neatly into and out of the barrel or the LE Wilson gauge. All of the sized cases gauge no problem, so like I said before, clearly the bullet is causing the problem and not extractor rim burrs or glock bulges or whatever.

3) Although I haven't shot them yet, they all pass the barrel test, so I think they will function well. They pretty much all slide into the barrel no problem, but most require a bit of pressure to come out, and you can feel just a little bit of stickiness. A few did pop right out of the gauge or barrel, but most did not. They all did seem to drop down to the right spot, however.

So here are my next set of questions:

1) Should I just do all my resizing first, so that way when I run the rest of the operations the press won't be flexing nearly as much, so in theory the OALs should be a lot closer together?

2) Although I was trying to be careful seating the bullets straight, would a different seating die like the Redding Competition Seater help center the bullets better than the Hornady die? It seems odd to me that some rounds measuring 1.065 didn't chamber as well as some others which were reading 1.075. Could it be that the bullets weren't in perfectly straight, and that a better seater die could help here?

3) Given what I'm describing, is there any role for that Lee FCD die?

4) Shouldn't I just give up, and spend all my time shooting my 1911 (which all my reloads run flawlessly in) and which I enjoy shooting a great deal?

[Boxerglocker]

I bought the EGW undersize die,

Pure, 100%, waste of money.

I don't have to chamber check anymore and I never have a case not seat due to bulge or extended bottom dimensions.

Neither have I... you just have to adjust your normal dies correctly.

I've never had issues with so called "Glocked" brass in any of the machines or dies I have used to load 9mm or .40 for my Glock's whether using stock, Lone Wolf or KKM barrels. that includes the SDB I loaded thousands of 9mm and .40 on as well. I adjust my shellplate up as high as possible, tighten with all stations loaded. I use a piece of paper to ensure it is clear of the dies body and no binding on the die bottom.

Edited November 27, 2010 by Boxerglocker

[DougCarden]

1) The OAL varied from 1.063 up to 1.075. I do not have this much variation from any other caliber I load (38/357, 40, 45) Of course, since the 9mm is tapered and the sizing die really has to work a little harder, I'm assuming this is causing the press to flex a bit more than normal, and not always repeatably.

I would say that this is probably from your seating die not matching up with the bullet ogive.....

2) OAL did not always correspond to a round which would drop neatly into and out of the barrel or the LE Wilson gauge. All of the sized cases gauge no problem, so like I said before, clearly the bullet is causing the problem and not extractor rim burrs or glock bulges or whatever.

The sized cases after the EGW die will all gauge...that is pretty much a guarantee.....If I remember correctly, and I wont be in the shop this weekend...Daddy time this weekend.....CBC brass is thicker than most...and will give you different numbers than commercial brass like WIN, REM, CCI/SPEER etc.....

3) Although I haven't shot them yet, they all pass the barrel test, so I think they will function well. They pretty much all slide into the barrel no problem, but most require a bit of pressure to come out, and you can feel just a little bit of stickiness. A few did pop right out of the gauge or barrel, but most did not. They all did seem to drop down to the right spot, however.

The Stickiness is the bullet rubbing, not a big deal. If you had to push it into the chamber hard, then you would need to worry about jacking out the loaded round from the chamber and leaving the bullet stuck in there, dumping powder all over the place....

So here are my next set of questions:

1) Should I just do all my resizing first, so that way when I run the rest of the operations the press won't be flexing nearly as much, so in theory the OALs should be a lot closer together?

If the press is flexing....it makes me wonder about the press, or if you have it set up on a sturdy enough bench. Your observations are spot on with everyone, including myself that used the EGW die. It seems to work best when you use the Dillon or another die first, to do most of the resizing, then use the EGW die after it for the finish, with case lube of course.

2) Although I was trying to be careful seating the bullets straight, would a different seating die like the Redding Competition Seater help center the bullets better than the Hornady die? It seems odd to me that some rounds measuring 1.065 didn't chamber as well as some others which were reading 1.075. Could it be that the bullets weren't in perfectly straight, and that a better seater die could help here? Unless you get a seating die stem made for the ogive you have on those bullets, you will get what you get. The COMP die may indeed help, but in my experience you don't need it. If you want one, get one.

3) Given what I'm describing, is there any role for that Lee FCD die? If they all chamber, then the FCD won't help you.....

4) Shouldn't I just give up, and spend all my time shooting my 1911 (which all my reloads run flawlessly in) and which I enjoy shooting a great deal? After looking at all this, I would load up and shoot the rest of those bullets in the 1911, and find another style that will run in both guns....Life is too short to have to deal with problems with bullet designs.....A 122 lead flat point would work in both guns, have a ogive design that you can use a regular seating stem with for repeatable OALs, and give you good terminal accuracy at 50yds if that is what you desire. I hope this info is helpful....I have been there, and worried about the same stuff. I then changed bullets, and didn't have to worry anymore.....

Good Luck!

DougC

[Darrell]

Change your bullet type and be done with it. Those blunt bullets are crap, if you want lead, go to the ones I posted further up. The RN should allow you to load out to 1.165 and the flat point 1.100 to 1.130 depending on gun.

[ShrinkMD]

Oops, I didn't add enough details.

I meant shoot my 45acp 1911! I was dreaming about the S&W Pro 1911 in 9mm, but I opted for the 952 instead based on reviews and feedback.

Yeah, the bullets are a problem, but unfortunately I have a bit to get through, which I ordered when I was shooting them in my 5906 (and they shoot fine there), so it looks like I will just use them in that gun and then try out those differently shaped ones. I also have some WIN, FC, and R-P brass to try out, but I was using the CBC because someone gave me a whole bucket of it, so I was hoping they would run well. I will try making up the same loads using the US brands of commercial brass, and see how I do.

I also do have a problem with the press moving around a bit, since some screws came loose underneath. I was blowing off fixing it, since I need to rebuild the plank I have clamped to my bench and disassemble everything, but perhaps this is the time to do so. Kind of like when your fishtank glass starts getting green from the algae telling you its really time for a nice water change.

I think I will do the following:

1) Remount my press nice and tight

2) Try out the other brands of brass

3) Try out the Redding Competition Seating die

4) Shoot up all these bullets somehow and buy something else next time

It sounds like step #4 will be the most important in the long run, but I'd really like to get these bullets running if I can. Any other thoughts? I bought the target gun before I was reloading, so I wasn't really thinking about how a more accurate gun might be finicky about ammo, especially reloads.