Newb question for open shooters

[Alaskapopo]

Well I got my Caspian back from Doug at Accrail and it runs great. I shot this group off hand at 20 yards with the gun in about 7 seconds or so. It was really easy.

Here is the gun.

Anyway the question is how much does your guns muzzle jump. I lost the dot on each shot on that 25 yard group. I was under the impression than open pistols shot flat. I am assuming that I was being a bit naive. Also I shot my first match in open a few weeks ago using my friends gun. I shot slower than I would have liked. How do you guys go so fast? I have a lot to learn.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

[Alaskapopo]

[Pat Miles]

What caliber is the gun? Barrel length? Any poppel holes in the barrel or just the comp.

Now that you have joined the dark side the fun begins. You will have to do a bit of experimentation with powder, powder charges, bullet weight, recoil spring weight and main spring weight to find what is going to make your gun shoot flatter. In some cases folks here have to push the power factor up around 175 or a bit higher to push enough gas out ahead of the bullet to make their particular comp work it's best. Please don't think that just pumping up the power factor alone is going to work the magic as you will have to find the powder that the gun likes as well as the other factors that I mentioned above. My Bedell 5" 38 SuperComp likes 115 grain Montana Gold JHP's over 10.2 grains of VV 3N38 @ 1.245" OAL. I run a 9# Sprinco recoil spring and a 17# mainspring. The firing pin stop has a long shallow slope on it letting the lightened slide open quicker. My dot rises straight up about halfway to the top of the glass and comes straight back down.

You'll find that folks run different recipes for their guns. There are about a bazillion threads giving information on this subject. Find some feedback for your barrel length/caliber/comp and start doing some timing drills with the suggestions you find. You have some experimenting ahead of you.

Pat

[Pat Miles]

Follow up after watching the videos. When you move between arrays you are dropping the gun down to chest height. Keep the gun UP in your field of vision. Doing so, you don't waste time lowering it , raising it and then finding the dot. You are dropping the gun during reloads which causes the same time consuming problems. Watch your videos and you'll see what I am saying.

Pat

Edited November 23, 2010 by whatmeworry

[Alaskapopo]

Cool thanks. So keep the gun up. Will have to beat than into myself.

The gun just has the comp. No barrel ports. Its in 38 super comp. I think its a 5 inch barrel. Not sure. I am going to try some 115 grain bullets on my next bullet order. I heard you can get the gas pressure up easier with them.

Pat

[G-ManBart]

Lighter bullets, with slower powders (and more of it), will increase the gas volume that makes the comp work. That's a start, but then you need to try different springs (probably 90% are using 9# recoil springs). Another little trick is to make sure the bottom of the firing pin stop is radiused, which makes the contact with the hammer a bit smoother and more progressive.

Lastly, Open guns can and do shoot flat, but that doesn't mean you don't have to work on your grip and timing to get them to really sing. People seem to assume that you can just lightly hold them and they'll stay on target...not true. When I chrono loads I always notice how much more dot rise I get compared with shooting normally...it's a big difference. It really just takes time and practice to really get a feel for it. R,

[jkatz44]

When shooting open, do you grip the gun like any other gun; like a limited gun?

[eric nielsen]

different grips work for different people but for me, the best Limited grip is waaay too much force to get the best Open gun performance. i find i need to back off the left hand quite a bit to where it's equal to the right hand. all the parts of both hands work together to squeeze down evenly all around the grip, and not tight enough to choke the gun either.

the shots seem to magically repeat themselves out at 25 yards if i back down to a grip that would hold a small animal but not break their bones. the "rabbit grip" if you like. adding force to that, especially left hand, especially with the left thumb on a rest, just screws everything up in comparison.

how well you can be ready for follow-up shots without trying - that's much more important than dot lift.

look out for how much your ears and eyelashes are telling you the gun is violently recoiling. it's not. it's louder than a Ltd gun, the recoil spike is sharper and quicker but overall much less. and a blast wave comes back and washes over your face. we have an instinct to blink when a wave of pressure hits our eyelashes. wraparound glasses and hi-dB-rated plugs & muffs will reduce that effect.

duane wrote an article in dillon's Blue Press about shooting into a berm with one shot [later, more than one shot] with your eyes shut. i'd hunt down that article and maybe do a search of everything BE has said about eyes-closed. it can help demonstrate noise-vs-recoil to you. HTH.

Edited November 23, 2010 by eric nielsen

[lcs]

Cool thanks. So keep the gun up. Will have to beat than into myself.

The gun just has the comp. No barrel ports. Its in 38 super comp. I think its a 5 inch barrel. Not sure. I am going to try some 115 grain bullets on my next bullet order. I heard you can get the gas pressure up easier with them.

Pat

115 with a slower powder should increase the gas. What powder are you using? Load development is a BIG part of open shooting. If your dot does not stay within the glass, then you need to work on the load.

115 are not the holy grail, 121 are great also. Comps are designed differently. Working on your load is half the fun of open. Good Luck and welcome to the dark side.

[mildot1]

Everyone else is answering your gun questions so I'll look at your shooting.

Real fast observations.

1 You are turning your body before your head. Snap your head around to the target, body will follow.

2 Get lower when you are moving and shooting. Your stance is very erect.

3 Put a little bend in your elbows, look very locked from the camera angle I see.

4 Make sure holster is unlocked before drawing, eliminates that "I'm trying to rip my pants off" feeling!

Mildot

[jkatz44]

different grips work for different people but for me, the best Limited grip is waaay too much force to get the best Open gun performance. i find i need to back off the left hand quite a bit to where it's equal to the right hand. all the parts of both hands work together to squeeze down evenly all around the grip, and not tight enough to choke the gun either.

the shots seem to magically repeat themselves out at 25 yards if i back down to a grip that would hold a small animal but not break their bones. the "rabbit grip" if you like. adding force to that, especially left hand, especially with the left thumb on a rest, just screws everything up in comparison.

how well you can be ready for follow-up shots without trying - that's much more important than dot lift.

look out for how much your ears and eyelashes are telling you the gun is violently recoiling. it's not. it's louder than a Ltd gun, the recoil spike is sharper and quicker but overall much less. and a blast wave comes back and washes over your face. we have an instinct to blink when a wave of pressure hits our eyelashes. wraparound glasses and hi-dB-rated plugs & muffs will reduce that effect.

duane wrote an article in dillon's Blue Press about shooting into a berm with one shot [later, more than one shot] with your eyes shut. i'd hunt down that article and maybe do a search of everything BE has said about eyes-closed. it can help demonstrate noise-vs-recoil to you. HTH.

Thanks Eric, that was what I was thinking. When I found myself gripping the open gun to hard, I saw that when the dot was trying to settle, it would be moving all over the place.

Edited November 23, 2010 by jkatz44

[G-ManBart]

When shooting open, do you grip the gun like any other gun; like a limited gun?

I can't speak for anybody else, but I don't think about it. I let what I'm seeing dictate my grip...hard to describe.

I think the grip is actually pretty dynamic, and will be different for a 3yd hoser target than it would be for a 20yd partial. Up close I'd bet my grip is looser, so it's easier to hammer a fast split...you don't need to control the muzzle flip at that distance. On longer targets, I'm betting I clamp down on the gun more, limiting the flip, so I can get a faster second shot. If I'm too relaxed (like when practicing) I've noted the dot rising more than it should, then I realized I was just sort of shooting, not driving the gun hard.

I would love to see a gun set up with a pressure sensor built into the grip (more than one would be better) and run some top guys on it, to get an idea of what they're really doing with their grip. I suspect we'd all be surprised how must we crank on the gun when we're really going fast. R,

[JThompson]

When shooting open, do you grip the gun like any other gun; like a limited gun?

I can't speak for anybody else, but I don't think about it. I let what I'm seeing dictate my grip...hard to describe.

I think the grip is actually pretty dynamic, and will be different for a 3yd hoser target than it would be for a 20yd partial. Up close I'd bet my grip is looser, so it's easier to hammer a fast split...you don't need to control the muzzle flip at that distance. On longer targets, I'm betting I clamp down on the gun more, limiting the flip, so I can get a faster second shot. If I'm too relaxed (like when practicing) I've noted the dot rising more than it should, then I realized I was just sort of shooting, not driving the gun hard.

I would love to see a gun set up with a pressure sensor built into the grip (more than one would be better) and run some top guys on it, to get an idea of what they're really doing with their grip. I suspect we'd all be surprised how must we crank on the gun when we're really going fast. R,

For me it happens on subconscious level... I think I probably start off with the same grip and let the gun and my vision adjust for what I need to feel/see. No conscious effort is made on my part.

JT

[Jeff686]

Ditto what others have said here.

Did the gunsmith recommed a starting point for bullet/powder? If not, ask him.

I've got a comp and 8 holes, and I can adjust my powder so I get NO dot rise. It sort of just quivers and shakes after each shot. I found this VERY hard to use. I like a dot to move up a little, helping me call my shots.

One drill I like to use when testing loads, is to fire 10-15 shots into a single target at medium range (15-20 yards). Be accurate enough to keep it in the A-zone, but no better. Watch the dot and how it moves. Try to establish a cadence that matches the dot. Use a timer to determine the split times of that cadence. Then change something (grip strength, spring, powder, bullet) and try again. Eventually, you find a combination that creates a cadence that naturally matches you, where you're not waiting for the dot, and are ready to fire just as the dot returns. For example, I learned that I was gripping my gun way too tight, making my dot rise then dip below before returning to the starting point. I figured this out by carefully watching the dot during practice, and adjusting my grip strength.

I've found a cadence where my 2nd shot lands reasonably close to my first, and just sort of happens naturally. I don't like the idea of 'double taps', but it is close to that. Once I get a sight picture, I can shoot two shots quickly and accurately, since I've already 'tuned' things.

I'm not sure I'm describing this well enough. It's not really a 'double tap' (not just pulling the trigger twice), but it's not really two separate aimed shots either. It's sorta like the first shot, dot movement, recoil, and 2nd shot are all one practiced event that happens after I get a good sight picture.

Of course, as distances change, the speed changes. At close up, I pull the trigger as fast as I can. At distance, each shot is carefully aimed.

[Rob Tompkins]

... wraparound glasses and hi-dB-rated plugs & muffs will reduce that effect ...

I've been shooting Open for a very short time but when I started using custom formed ear plugs & muffs I felt more relaxed and less likely to flinch due to noisel. I still get excited and slalt the trigger sometimes, but that is another issue!

Edited November 23, 2010 by Rob Tompkins

[ipscjoe]

I would leave your load alone........Just from watching, you have more things going on that you could improve first.....I bet if you handed your gun to a A-GM shooter you would see a totally different result with your muzzle rise....And that doesn't look that bad to me in your hands.......Why put all that wear and tear on your gun shooting 115's while improving your moving, your draw, target aquisition etc etc?......You don't need that right now...I'm no expert but I did make it to Master and that was with 135grain bullets....I shoot that or HEAVIER now out of my SC...... JMO............Word of advise (I even have to remind myself sometimes)...Everytime you think you need a hotter load to control muzzle flip, or more bullets in your mag, look at your match results.....Were there limited shooters that placed ahead of you?..Did they beat you with less muzzle flip? or with more bullets?....nope......Your IDPA videos show you shooting faster and with more control IMO with a stock gun....I'd get used to this new open gun first before I went changing..

Edited November 23, 2010 by ipscjoe

[calishootr]

the gun in thetop picture is a first gen. limcat turbo comp, the grip is is done by guntriks down here in northern cali. least the paint pattern looks like his

I have one of johnny's first gen turbo comps and it seems to like the slower powders to shoot 'flatter' ive got it set up now to where the dot really doesnt ever leave the screen on the c-more, but that took a lil work on my part, with change outs of springs and working up loads for it.

as for 'speed' all it is is a direct result of economy of motion, what arethe 'fast' guys not doing thatthe 'slow' guys are??? wasted motion leads to longer times, you have video'd yourself on the courses, also video some of the 'better' shooters in your club as to how they are shooting the same courses

and since your new to open, learn the gun...its like anything else in this sport, it takes a lil time to 'see' whats going on in a new division with new equipment

[Alaskapopo]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I admit I have a lot to learn and I hope to have fun doing it.

Pat

[mark carr]

Dam Pat you opened the whole can of worms I was just going to say run faster and shoot faster...

[mark carr]

All kidding aside Pat next time you guys come down (bring your pistols )I will show you some drills that that make the transition from iron sites to the dot easier mainly to get your focus off the gun and on the target and to trust your cadence at different distances.And maybe show you one of old walk through sticks that we use to use back in the day. Mark,

[Alaskapopo]

All kidding aside Pat next time you guys come down (bring your pistols )I will show you some drills that that make the transition from iron sites to the dot easier mainly to get your focus off the gun and on the target and to trust your cadence at different distances.And maybe show you one of old walk through sticks that we use to use back in the day. Mark,

Cool thanks Mark.

Pat

[mark carr]

here's a pic of an old walk through stick with a new up date we used to use a 4mm red fishing bead but I stuck a piece fiber optic on it anyway it helps to train your self not to look at the gun but keep dot in secondary vision.