Adding additional parts to production trigger group.

[fiddler]

It does replace a part.

What does it replace? Not that cap for the hole in the frame, you can leave that in and it still works.

[Skydiver]

It does replace a part.

What does it replace? Not that cap for the hole in the frame, you can leave that in and it still works.

If that's the logic you are using, then people can leave the stock 7# trigger in some Glocks and it still works. :-)

Seriously though, the OP does ask a valid question about the difference between "adding" and "replacing" internal parts. For a little while, I owned a SIG 226 that had an amazing short reset, the way that was done was by putting a drop of silver solder on trigger bar. Was that drop of silver solder "added" or was it simply "modified"?

If I had to make a call, I would say that the RAM is a legal internal modification, much like some of the modifications in Glocks that add an over travel screw, or an insert added in to shorten the pre-travel on an XD.

[staudacher]

It does replace a part.

What does it replace? Not that cap for the hole in the frame, you can leave that in and it still works.

You are correct. Not sure what I was thinking there...

[waktasz]

On some guns it replaces the internal lock. The Pros or 9L don't have that though.

[bgary]

why would it be illegal? its an internal modification,not seen from the outside, and a trigger enhancement part. last I heard you were allowed to do things internally for accuraccy purposes.

Creative interpretation of that clause led to a whole ton of *very* detailed clarifications and interpretations a couple of years ago. That "if I can claim it is for accuracy purposes it is okay" is long gone.

My oppinion if it is safe, its ok!

Bottom line right now is that unless you can point to a place in the rules - or a published ruling from NROI - that *specifically* says a modification is legal for Production... it isn't.

Edited May 11, 2011 by jakers

[Vlad]

On some guns it replaces the internal lock. The Pros or 9L don't have that though.

How is this for creative rule interpretation. ... You can add and remove parts from other approved models. You can replace factory parts. Ok then .. Buy the lock parts, put them in Pro or L, take them back out, install RAM.

[waktasz]

I bought a replacement sear block from Brownell's because I was having the dead trigger issue. All of the replacement blocks you can buy online do come with the lock AFAIK.

[Vlad]

I bought a replacement sear block from Brownell's because I was having the dead trigger issue. All of the replacement blocks you can buy online do come with the lock AFAIK.

Out of curiosity, is this the sear block with larger sear spring hole and spring? And I assume it does include the spring and plunger? Also which brownells stock number?

[waktasz]

No .

This was probably 4-5 months ago though. Not sure if the new parts have been distributed yet or not.

[Vlad]

Thanx, I want to see if I can snag a few of the new ones somewhere, if they actually exist. I know Apex will modify exiting ones for $25 but I rather just get new ones.

[waktasz]

Same here. I didn't want my gun to be down while I waited to ship the block to Apex for the treatment. The new block (even with the small spring) has completely cured my dead trigger problems.

[bgary]

On some guns it replaces the internal lock. The Pros or 9L don't have that though.

How is this for creative rule interpretation. ... You can add and remove parts from other approved models. You can replace factory parts. Ok then .. Buy the lock parts, put them in Pro or L, take them back out, install RAM.

That's not "creative rule interpretation". The simple term for that is "cheating".

The rules say that if specific parts (named in the rules) come from the factory installed on a production-legal gun, you can exchange them onto another gun. Making a modification which is not *specifically* allowed by the rules, is... against the rules.

So...exactly which production-legal gun comes from the factory with the Apex parts installed?

[gng4life]

On some guns it replaces the internal lock. The Pros or 9L don't have that though.

How is this for creative rule interpretation. ... You can add and remove parts from other approved models. You can replace factory parts. Ok then .. Buy the lock parts, put them in Pro or L, take them back out, install RAM.

That's not "creative rule interpretation". The simple term for that is "cheating".

The rules say that if specific parts (named in the rules) come from the factory installed on a production-legal gun, you can exchange them onto another gun. Making a modification which is not *specifically* allowed by the rules, is... against the rules.

So...exactly which production-legal gun comes from the factory with the Apex parts installed?

Please be careful with the tones, we don't want to lose the right to the rules forum.

Let's wait for a ruling from DNROI and then we all will know for sure since none of us can make that call...Thanks

[JAFO]

On some guns it replaces the internal lock. The Pros or 9L don't have that though.

How is this for creative rule interpretation. ... You can add and remove parts from other approved models. You can replace factory parts. Ok then .. Buy the lock parts, put them in Pro or L, take them back out, install RAM.

That's not "creative rule interpretation". The simple term for that is "cheating".

The rules say that if specific parts (named in the rules) come from the factory installed on a production-legal gun, you can exchange them onto another gun. Making a modification which is not *specifically* allowed by the rules, is... against the rules.

So...exactly which production-legal gun comes from the factory with the Apex parts installed?

I think he's saying to replace the parts with other factory parts that include the lock mechanism that the RAM would then replace. You swap out a part for another factory part, then replace a component of that part with the RAM.

[bgary]

I think he's saying to replace the parts with other factory parts that include the lock mechanism that the RAM would then replace. You swap out a part for another factory part, then replace a component of that part with the RAM.

'kay, that's great, but it doesn't answer the question: Which production-legal gun comes from the factory with the RAM part? Or, failing that, which rule or NROI ruling specifically allows it?

ObNote, my comments are not about the RAM. My comments are more about the fundamental premise of Production division, which is that you are NOT allowed to make a modification unless the rulebook specifically permits it. That whole "if you can't see it from the outside it is fair game" thing went out the window a couple of years ago.

Edited May 12, 2011 by jakers

[Vlad]

I think you are confused. The issue we are asking about here boils down to the following conundrum: Can I install a internal part that does not replace an existing one? Lets look at the rules:

21.5 Exchange of minor

INTERNAL components

(strikers, sears, springs,

connectors/disconnectors,

and other wholly-internal

parts)

INTERNAL parts: This clause is NOW interpreted

to mean that a broad range of INTERNAL parts may

be modified or replaced – either with OEM or aftermarket

parts.

Special Notes/Clarifications:

• Strikers, sears, springs, connectors/disconnectors,

and any other part which is NOT visible when the

gun is in battery is considered an INTERNAL part

and may be modified or replaced unless otherwise

prohibited in these provisions (see section 22 for specific

prohibitions).

• Guide rods are considered an “internal part” and

may be modified and/or replaced with OEM or aftermarket

guide rods even though part of the guide rod

is externally visible when the gun is in battery. Note

that the weight limits in D4-18 remain in force and

relevant.

The key words here are "parts may be modified or replaced – either with OEM or aftermarket parts." The problem is that the RAM is not a modified part OR a replacement in a gun that doesn't have the extra safety stuff in it. If the gun you purchased included the internal lock which fits inside the same space as the RAM, replacing the internal lock with the RAM is a no brainer, you are replacing an internal part with an aftermarket one which is perfectly allowed by the rules. You are not disabling an externally operable safety so you are good to go.

In the case of the models without the internal lock, the rules still allow me to replace the entire sear block with one that does include an internal lock, after all I'm using OEM parts for an approved model. So far I haven't cheated or broken any rules.

Next I replace the internal lock with the RAM which is also allowed because I'm replacing a OEM part with an aftermarket part.

Where is the cheating?

[JAFO]

...You are not disabling an externally operable safety so you are good to go.

I wouldn't consider an internal lock a safety mechanism - it's a lock. If you remove it, you are still in compliance with 21.1:

• ALL factory safety mechanisms, whether internal or external, must remain functional.

[Vlad]

...You are not disabling an externally operable safety so you are good to go.

I wouldn't consider an internal lock a safety mechanism - it's a lock. If you remove it, you are still in compliance with 21.1:

• ALL factory safety mechanisms, whether internal or external, must remain functional.

I agree, that was kinda my point, made poorly.

[JAFO]

I know. I was just preempting a possible rebuttal of your point based on that rule.

[TeleMark]

So, did anyone ever get a ruling on this from NROI? It's a bit of a moot point for me as I just installed the FSS and trigger, which would not be production legal, but since the M&P Pro in .40 is STILL not on the production list (I'm celebrating my first anniversary with this shooting iron, so not being Pro legal is a little frustrating), I've turned it into an L-10/Limited burner. I have some shooting buddies who are interested in the platform.

[aeropb]

Any updates on this topic? I'd also like to know.