Looney idea of the week

[GorillaTactical]

I really like the idea of switching to a format similar to this. I specifically like how we have a division more inviting to new shooters and how HM is structured. HM shooters can stick with the pump if they want (and shoot in the "limited" division) or go with an auto (and shoot modified). Jesse's right though...there is no way that this will get adapted to official rules.

[Alaskapopo]

How 'bout less rules, and fewer divisions. EG, you shoot a high enough power factor, you get to be sloppier on your hits, and leave it at that.

I actually like more divisions. USPSA did the right thing when they made single stack and production. They stole a lot of shooters over from IDPA. The more divisions the more people feel they can find a divison that suits the guns they have. Just my take.

Pat

[Ranger_SXT]

How 'bout less rules, and fewer divisions. EG, you shoot a high enough power factor, you get to be sloppier on your hits, and leave it at that.

I actually like more divisions. USPSA did the right thing when they made single stack and production. They stole a lot of shooters over from IDPA. The more divisions the more people feel they can find a divison that suits the guns they have. Just my take.

Pat

Until it turns into SASS, where there are more divisions than shooters at most local level matches...

[Alaskapopo]

How 'bout less rules, and fewer divisions. EG, you shoot a high enough power factor, you get to be sloppier on your hits, and leave it at that.

I actually like more divisions. USPSA did the right thing when they made single stack and production. They stole a lot of shooters over from IDPA. The more divisions the more people feel they can find a divison that suits the guns they have. Just my take.

Pat

Until it turns into SASS, where there are more divisions than shooters at most local level matches...

I am going to try to run these divisions at the next three gun match I hold. Tell me what you think.

1. Production.

Pistol rules.

Pistol must fit in IDPA box (except revolvers). No optics or compensator allowed. Must be 9x19 or larger. Can only be loaded with 10+1. No other rules you can run a single stack 1911 or a double stack as long as its down loaded to 10+1. You can run a Glock, Sig, Beretta (insert favorite pistol here) Basically its like limited but with low capacity. My reason would be to appeal to those guys who don't have game guns.

Shotgun rules.

Pump action 8+1. No optics, comps or speed loaders.

Rifle rules (same as limited now) Red dots or irons no magnification.

2. Tactical.

Same as it is now in USPSA.

3. Open.

Same as it is in USPSA except shotgun. No restrictions on magazine capacity.

My matches are small by lower 48 standards. I get between 20 and 30 shooters. I will let you guys know how popular production is vs the old limited. This will keep the number of divisions from increasing while filling a real or perhaps perceived need.

Pat

Edited December 7, 2010 by Alaskapopo

[kellyn]

You will get a lot of complaints with the 10+1 rule for pistols. Most shooters don't have 10 round mags. They have Glocks etc. with a higher capacity. They may be confused as to why they can't fully load their magazines. A Glock 17 ain't a game gun.

I would not run USPSA Tactical Rules as you are making everyone shoot a .40 hi cap. I'd go outlaw multigun, lose the power factor, and let the masses shoot 9mms.

[Alaskapopo]

You will get a lot of complaints with the 10+1 rule for pistols. Most shooters don't have 10 round mags. They have Glocks etc. with a higher capacity. They may be confused as to why they can't fully load their magazines. A Glock 17 ain't a game gun.

I would not run USPSA Tactical Rules as you are making everyone shoot a .40 hi cap. I'd go outlaw multigun, lose the power factor, and let the masses shoot 9mms.

I should have been more clear. I am not going to do major minor. So with tactical rules it would be USPSA rules except no major minor in tactical. Your right a Glock 17 is not a game gun. I just wanted to have a way to level the playing field for new shooters who had a mix of guns from single stack 45's to Glock 17's. Thanks for your input. The major minor thing was a pain in the but at the last match I ran. As for the 10 round mags they can download their high caps, I won't require them to have actual 10 round mags. Maybe I should ditch the 10 round idea. Not sure yet.Basically I was trying to wrap USPSA production, limited 10, IDPA, SSP, ESP into one catagory.

Pat

[Charles Bond]

This is the type of thing we can continue to talk about until the cows come home but unless and until we have an organization that governs MG, nothing is going to happen. Sure you might have one of the MDs at an existing match see this thread and either embrace DanOs idea or tweek it slightly. But at the heart of the issue is that shooters just want to shoot this game under a fair set of rules that do not vary widely from match to match. In my experience the shooters are much more ready to adopt a set of unified rules than the more independent MDs are.

[bunsen27]

You will get a lot of complaints with the 10+1 rule for pistols. Most shooters don't have 10 round mags. They have Glocks etc. with a higher capacity. They may be confused as to why they can't fully load their magazines. A Glock 17 ain't a game gun.

I would not run USPSA Tactical Rules as you are making everyone shoot a .40 hi cap. I'd go outlaw multigun, lose the power factor, and let the masses shoot 9mms.

I should have been more clear. I am not going to do major minor. So with tactical rules it would be USPSA rules except no major minor in tactical. Your right a Glock 17 is not a game gun. I just wanted to have a way to level the playing field for new shooters who had a mix of guns from single stack 45's to Glock 17's. Thanks for your input. The major minor thing was a pain in the but at the last match I ran. As for the 10 round mags they can download their high caps, I won't require them to have actual 10 round mags. Maybe I should ditch the 10 round idea. Not sure yet.Basically I was trying to wrap USPSA production, limited 10, IDPA, SSP, ESP into one catagory.

Pat

I agree with Kelly that the 10+1 rule for pistol would be more of a hinderance than a help for most shooters. I shoot Production in USPSA and start with 4 mags on the belt and one in the gun (51 rounds). The average shooter is likely to only have 2-3 mags unless they already shoot Production. If you have a stage with a high pistol round count and some challenging targets some shooters might run completely out, which is no fun (I know from experience ). Top the mags off, just no "gamer" guns. Good Luck and let us know how things work out.

Edited December 8, 2010 by bunsen27

[dcloudy777]

Pat, you could let the 9mm guys load their mags all the way and then let the single stack .45s have a "Heavy Metal" type scoring advantage (i.e. neutralize targets with one A hit only). The same principle would work for rifles as well, of course, in Alaska .308 is probably the "wimpy" caliber, HM probably requires at least a .458WM.

DanO

[Johnny Kalasnakov]

Okay, times they are a-changin'. The discussion about 1X optics in tac irons has got me thinking, and I've come up with a division concept I want to run by the 3-gun world here and see what sort of discussion it creates. Here goes:

Open: Let the arms race begin. Open means open. Saiga drums, Xrails, lasers, monster muzzle brakes, whatever. If someone wants to build a 1919A6 in 20 gauge, go for it. This division should be the lab where gear is grown. As long as it’s safe, legal, and meets minimum caliber/gauge requirements, bring it, run it, and make us all want one.

Modified: Tactical Optics under a different name. The same equipment rules would apply. This division makes up the bulk of the game, leave it alone.

Limited: Here’s where things start to get different. Pistol rules same as Modified. 1X optic or irons on the rifle. 30rd mags only. Same comp/brake limitations as Tac Optics. PUMP shotguns that otherwise conform to Modified rules. This is the “stuff I have in the safe anyway” or “stuff that’s cheap to get and I should have in the safe anyway” class. You could buy all the gear you need to win this class for under $2K, probably well under.

Heavy Metal: Now things are starting to get complicated. Heavy Metal isn’t a stand-alone division. If a shooter chooses to compete in any of the 3 divisions with a rifle of .308 caliber or above (20rd mag limit), a pistol of .45ACP or above (8 rd mag limit), or a revolver of .38Spl or above, the shooter can neutralize paper targets with the “heavy metal option” (1 shot only on target with an A or B zone hit). The “heavy metal” gun must otherwise conform to the requirements of the chosen division.

The number of targets neutralized using the heavy metal option can be totaled for the whole match and used to recognize/reward the top HM shooters. (such as highest number of “HMO” targets in each division, total match time divided by HMO targets, etc.)

Here’s the advantages I think this system would bring to our game:

Makes fewer, but larger divisions: As much as I would love to see it, I don’t think Tac Irons (without 1X optics anyway) or HM is going to get any bigger than it is now. Shooting against 6 or 7 folks is still fun, but shooting against 60 or 70 is way more fun. I think I’ve come up with a way to fold iron sights and HM into larger pools of competition while still allowing them to remain competitive.

Gets pump-guns out of Heavy Metal: It seems in my talking to HM shooters, and shooting a few matches in HM myself, that the pump shotgun is the least favorite part of HM. It also encourages the use of the lightest 12ga loads one can find, which IMHO kinda defeats the whole purpose.

Gives pump-guns a bigger place to play: The pump shotgun needs a place in 3-gun, because it’s cheap, and everybody already has one. I would venture that in looking at “defensive” type shotguns alone, pumps outnumber autoloaders by at least 20 to 1 in the US.

Limited is a great entry-level division: Most “gun people” these days seem have an AR with a dot on it, a pump shotgun that either already holds or can easily be made to hold 9 rounds, and a good defensive pistol. A zillion new combat vets are coming back from durkadurkistan with time behind a 1X optic, and a ton of them come home and immediately buy one for themselves. Dot-sighted patrol rifles are becoming more and more prevalent in law enforcement. I personally carry all the gear I would need to shoot in this division in my car everywhere I go.

What say you, 3-gun? (flame suit on) Like I usually say when I'm throwing out my addled musings; I'm not trying to change the world, I just try to think about ways to improve and grow the game, and encourage everyone to do the same.

DanO

Let the Arms race begin.. I'm looking to compete in my first 3 gun competition in Feb... I am the guy with the saiga with the 20 round drum and 20" arms to run around with the big gun with big drum... I love it... Johnny K.

[kellyn]

Stage design can mitigate this single stack vs. production 9mm issue. That being said, I don't know that I would gear a 3 gun stage around the 1911 single stack.

[Alaskapopo]

Update 7-16-11.

I hosted my annual match and production division was a hit.

In my earlier matches I saw a lot of new shooters with pump shotguns, single stack 1911's, Sigs, Beretta's and what have you and a rifle with a red dot or irons. So I decided to modify limited division. (this was an outlaw match) I called this division Production and limited the handguns to anything allowed in limited but I only allowed the shooters to load with 10+1 like USPSA. This was to level the playing field for new shooters making hi cap guns not essential. Then I required pump shotguns. Most new guys had a pump but did not have a semi. This gave the pump shotgun a home. The rifle rules I left alone from USPSA limited. Red dots or irons but no magnification. I was surprized to see Production being more popular than tactical but it was. It was popular enough I am going to leave it this way. I did allow Vang comp barrel porting and Knoxx stocks into production as well. I invite other clubs to try it.

All I did for stage design was limit the pistol round count to 30 max. We still had some big and fun stages.

I used IDPA scoring to make things simpler. Here are the match results.

Match results From 2011 annual Seward Multi Gun match.

Production Division (pump shotguns, rifles with irons and red dots, handguns loaded to 10 +1 rounds only)

1. Josh 327.32

2. Todd 336.61

3. James 366.61

4. Damion 404.88

5. Michael 476.56

6. Kirk 609.71

7. Steve 644.51

8. Paul 660.76

Tactical Divison (semi auto tube fed shotguns, no speed loaders, high cap pistols (23 round 9mms 40s etc and rifles with one magnified optic only)

1. Scott 273.04

2. Kelly 273.42

3. Gabe 283.48

4. Alan 362.15

Open Division Muzzle brakes and optics on shotguns and handguns huge mags on pistols (28 round 38 supers, Rifles with two optics and bi pods)

1. Mark 203.21 (Xrail)

2. Ken 224.54 (R&R Saiga)

3. Pat (me) 232.88 (R&R Saiga)

4. Morty 260.88 (Xrail)

5. Bob 273.06

6. Cody 407.47

7. Manny 432.03

Overall

1. Mark 203.21 Open (Xrail)

2. Ken 224.54 Open (R&R Saiga)

3. Pat (me) 232.88 Open (R&R Saiga)

4. Morty 260.88 Open (Xrail)

5. Scott 273.04 Tactical

6. Kelly 273.42 Tactical

7. Bob 273.06 Open

8. Gabe 283.48 Tactical

9. Josh 327.32 Production

10. Todd 336.61 Production

11. Alan 362.15 Tactical

12. James 366.61 Production

13. Damion 404.88 Production

14. Cody 407.47 Open

15. Manny 432.03 Open

16. Michael 476.56 Production

17. Kirk 609.71 Production

18. Steve 644.51 Production

19. Paul 660.76 Production

Shoot off winner (shoot off was from 1st place of each division, the winners had to load a revolver with 6 rounds and knock over 5 pepper poppers at 20 yards.

1. Mark with 15.40 all poppers down

2. Scott with 19.63 1 miss

3. Josh 19 seconds (forgot to write it down) 2 misses)

A big thank you to the match sponsors.

1. The Carrington Foundation (Donated $300)

2. Black Dog Gun Shop in Soldotna. (sold me an upper at far far below retail )

3. Larue Tactical (Donated a gift certificate for any mount they make and 35 bottle openers marked Seward Three gun Match 2011 and 35 Dillos )

4. Vortex Optics (Donated a Strike fire red dot)

5. Primary Arms (Donated a 1-4 scope and mount, also micro red dot and mount)

6. Primary Weapons (donated a nice FSC 556 muzzle brake)

7. Springer Precision (donated a magazine coupler)

8. Rocky Mountain Tactical (Donated some great slings)

Edited July 18, 2011 by Alaskapopo

[Alaskapopo]

As much as I love to shoot USPSA I am not going start a club affiliated with them because I like the rule flexablity of being Outlaw.

Re cap of the rules.

Open same as USPSA except shotguns could load full no round count restrictions. Xrails and Saiga's welcome.

Tactical Same as USPSA.

Production.

Handguns. No compensators or optics. pistols must be loaded with 10+1 rounds or less.

Shotguns. Must be pump and no more than 8+1 in the gun at any time.

Rifles. Same as USPSA limited, red dots allowed and Irons no magnification.

Pat

Edited July 18, 2011 by Alaskapopo

[toothandnail]

I don't shoot many of the alphabet matches because of ALL the rules , when I do shoot them I don't worry about the penalties , seems to me that's what they're all about ,not shooting skills , they are extremely fun to shoot though .

I would shoot HM but the 10 round is silly IMO , if you want to run a 10 that's fine , don't limit my stock production gun .

I am thinking of running in open just so I can run what I want , not that I'm gona spend the big bucks , I would like a RDS on all my guns.

[Lead-Head]

A pump in tac-irons? I would give it a try. That is what I started shooting TI with a few years ago, because it is what I had. I like the idea of keeping it irons only though. No reason to require a pump, but allow a prismatic on the rifle. Would you also require a production handgun? That would be cool.

[dcloudy777]

A pump in tac-irons? I would give it a try. That is what I started shooting TI with a few years ago, because it is what I had. I like the idea of keeping it irons only though. No reason to require a pump, but allow a prismatic on the rifle. Would you also require a production handgun? That would be cool.

The original "production" division idea would require a production-type handgun (but with full-cap 140mm mags), or a single-stack single action gun (with 170mm mags). As to non-magnified sights on the rifle... whether we like it or not, the red-dot has become the iron sight of the 21st century. A huge percentage of "black rifle" owners are putting dot sights on them, often before they leave the store.

DanO

[Alaskapopo]

A pump in tac-irons? I would give it a try. That is what I started shooting TI with a few years ago, because it is what I had. I like the idea of keeping it irons only though. No reason to require a pump, but allow a prismatic on the rifle. Would you also require a production handgun? That would be cool.

The reason I limited the magazine capacity on the pistols was to keep single stack 1911's and production guns like Glocks, Sigs, Beretta's on a pretty much even playing field. That is what most begininers have in this area. The reason for the pump shotguns was because that is what most people start with. Not many people have a semi auto shotgun up here that can do three gun well. But most have a 870 or a Mossberg pump. As for the rifles and the red dots and irons. That is what most new shooters have. As a side line this also works well for most leo shooters in my area because that is what their guns fit into.

Pat

[Lead-Head]

A pump in tac-irons? I would give it a try. That is what I started shooting TI with a few years ago, because it is what I had. I like the idea of keeping it irons only though. No reason to require a pump, but allow a prismatic on the rifle. Would you also require a production handgun? That would be cool.

The reason I limited the magazine capacity on the pistols was to keep single stack 1911's and production guns like Glocks, Sigs, Beretta's on a pretty much even playing field. That is what most begininers have in this area. The reason for the pump shotguns was because that is what most people start with. Not many people have a semi auto shotgun up here that can do three gun well. But most have a 870 or a Mossberg pump. As for the rifles and the red dots and irons. That is what most new shooters have. As a side line this also works well for most leo shooters in my area because that is what their guns fit into.

Pat

How about any shotgun as configured by the manufacturer? Pump or semi, but no fancifications. An 870 with and extension would be fine as long as it was in a configuration offered as a stock gun. Rifles and handguns the same. I am fine with the red dots if we have to inculde them to get new participants, but If a production divison is the goal, it would be more open to new shooters if they did not feel like they needed a dot to be competitive.

I would have to change my irons guns to meet "production" criteria as well. They are far from stock.

[Alaskapopo]

A pump in tac-irons? I would give it a try. That is what I started shooting TI with a few years ago, because it is what I had. I like the idea of keeping it irons only though. No reason to require a pump, but allow a prismatic on the rifle. Would you also require a production handgun? That would be cool.

The reason I limited the magazine capacity on the pistols was to keep single stack 1911's and production guns like Glocks, Sigs, Beretta's on a pretty much even playing field. That is what most begininers have in this area. The reason for the pump shotguns was because that is what most people start with. Not many people have a semi auto shotgun up here that can do three gun well. But most have a 870 or a Mossberg pump. As for the rifles and the red dots and irons. That is what most new shooters have. As a side line this also works well for most leo shooters in my area because that is what their guns fit into.

Pat

How about any shotgun as configured by the manufacturer? Pump or semi, but no fancifications. An 870 with and extension would be fine as long as it was in a configuration offered as a stock gun. Rifles and handguns the same. I am fine with the red dots if we have to inculde them to get new participants, but If a production divison is the goal, it would be more open to new shooters if they did not feel like they needed a dot to be competitive.

I would have to change my irons guns to meet "production" criteria as well. They are far from stock.

I set up the rules based on what I saw new shooters running in the past. The only problem with making them run it bone stock with no mods at all is that would elimate most new shooters guns as most put something on their guns that takes them out of bone stock. My division rules worked well for this match. You may want o experiment in your area. Like I said I based mine on the last few years of hosting matches and seeing what new shooters brought.

Pat

[Charles Bond]

Okay, times they are a-changin'. The discussion about 1X optics in tac irons has got me thinking, and I've come up with a division concept I want to run by the 3-gun world here and see what sort of discussion it creates. Here goes:

Open: Let the arms race begin. Open means open. Saiga drums, Xrails, lasers, monster muzzle brakes, whatever. If someone wants to build a 1919A6 in 20 gauge, go for it. This division should be the lab where gear is grown. As long as it’s safe, legal, and meets minimum caliber/gauge requirements, bring it, run it, and make us all want one.

Modified: Tactical Optics under a different name. The same equipment rules would apply. This division makes up the bulk of the game, leave it alone.

Limited: Here’s where things start to get different. Pistol rules same as Modified. 1X optic or irons on the rifle. 30rd mags only. Same comp/brake limitations as Tac Optics. PUMP shotguns that otherwise conform to Modified rules. This is the “stuff I have in the safe anyway” or “stuff that’s cheap to get and I should have in the safe anyway” class. You could buy all the gear you need to win this class for under $2K, probably well under.

Heavy Metal: Now things are starting to get complicated. Heavy Metal isn’t a stand-alone division. If a shooter chooses to compete in any of the 3 divisions with a rifle of .308 caliber or above (20rd mag limit), a pistol of .45ACP or above (8 rd mag limit), or a revolver of .38Spl or above, the shooter can neutralize paper targets with the “heavy metal option” (1 shot only on target with an A or B zone hit). The “heavy metal” gun must otherwise conform to the requirements of the chosen division.

The number of targets neutralized using the heavy metal option can be totaled for the whole match and used to recognize/reward the top HM shooters. (such as highest number of “HMO” targets in each division, total match time divided by HMO targets, etc.)

Here’s the advantages I think this system would bring to our game:

Makes fewer, but larger divisions: As much as I would love to see it, I don’t think Tac Irons (without 1X optics anyway) or HM is going to get any bigger than it is now. Shooting against 6 or 7 folks is still fun, but shooting against 60 or 70 is way more fun. I think I’ve come up with a way to fold iron sights and HM into larger pools of competition while still allowing them to remain competitive.

Gets pump-guns out of Heavy Metal: It seems in my talking to HM shooters, and shooting a few matches in HM myself, that the pump shotgun is the least favorite part of HM. It also encourages the use of the lightest 12ga loads one can find, which IMHO kinda defeats the whole purpose.

Gives pump-guns a bigger place to play: The pump shotgun needs a place in 3-gun, because it’s cheap, and everybody already has one. I would venture that in looking at “defensive” type shotguns alone, pumps outnumber autoloaders by at least 20 to 1 in the US.

Limited is a great entry-level division: Most “gun people” these days seem have an AR with a dot on it, a pump shotgun that either already holds or can easily be made to hold 9 rounds, and a good defensive pistol. A zillion new combat vets are coming back from durkadurkistan with time behind a 1X optic, and a ton of them come home and immediately buy one for themselves. Dot-sighted patrol rifles are becoming more and more prevalent in law enforcement. I personally carry all the gear I would need to shoot in this division in my car everywhere I go.

What say you, 3-gun? (flame suit on) Like I usually say when I'm throwing out my addled musings; I'm not trying to change the world, I just try to think about ways to improve and grow the game, and encourage everyone to do the same.

DanO

I think your area of Tennessee is a natural place to hold a great match. Host it and I will come.