You make the call

[bruin]

In a recent match a competitor was shooting a stage (Virginia Count)where he had to engage three targets on the left side with two rounds each and then do a mandatory reload and engage three targets on the right side with two rounds each. He shot the three on the left and then one on the right with two each and then remembered he didn't make the reload. He made the reload and shot the three on the right including the one he should not have engaged from the left with two each thinking he needed to engage each set of three from the proper side.

How many procedurals or penalties?

[NoSteel]

"He shot the three on the left and then one on the right with two each"

Does this mean he shot all 3 targets on the right, 2rnds each (6 shots total) before doing the mandatory reload?

Edited October 10, 2010 by NoSteel

[The_Vigilante]

No, he only shot one target on the right with 2 shots then did the mandatory reload and then shot all three targets on the right.

[walter hornby]

two procedures for each shot after the point where he was suppose to make the mandatory reload. Then procdures for the extra shots and the extra hits. Note this is based on IPSC rules and USPSA might vary a bit.

[bruin]

No, he only shot one target on the right with 2 shots then did the mandatory reload and then shot all three targets on the right.

The_Vigilante explained it correctly.

My thoughts were: 1 procedure for shooting an extra target before the reload and 1 penalty for each of the two shots fired before the reload. No penalties for engaging the same target in the second part of the string. He already has been penalized in time, not for following the stage description and the penality for each shot fired before the reload. In my mind he was just trying to satisfy that the required targets were engaged on the right side.

This happened to me and I need to know how to call it the next time is comes up.

[BayouSlide]

Two procedurals for the two shots fired after the point where the mandatory reload should have occurred [per 10.2.4: A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.], plus the penalties for two extra shots on a Virginia count stage.

Note that it doesn't make any difference that he re-engaged the target after reloading, per 10.1.4 [Procedural penalties cannot be nullified by further competitor action. For example, a competitor who fires a shot at a target while faulting a line will still incur the applicable penalties even though he subsequently shoots at the same target while not faulting the line.]

Curtis

Edited: 'cause I hate tipos typos!

Edited October 10, 2010 by BayouSlide

[BayouSlide]

Also, it's important to note that there is no double jeopardy on penalties. Per the recent rules revisions 10.2.2: A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required position or stance). Do not apply two different penalties for the same offense, (e.g. not firing the required rounds in a Virginia Count stage; competitor gets a miss [my addition: or in this case, the extra shot penalty] and no procedural).

This is the sort of question discussed in the USPSA Rules forum here, and would have probably have received more attention there.

Curtis

Edited: 'cause I still hate tipos typos!

Edited October 10, 2010 by BayouSlide

[SteveZ]

Can you penalize someone for being a bad shot? How about this, same deal but the competitors two shots don't hit anything...you'd give them 2 extras shot penalties (but probably no penality for failing to do the reload)...now suppose they fire the two extra rounds....and they hit the first group of targets....two extra shots, two extra hits and again probably no penalty for failing to do the reload. And now final scenerio...they are such a bad shot that they fire the two extra rounds and by chance hit one of the targets in the other array. Two extra shots and now your going to ding them for a procedural for failing to do the reload? If you answer no because they are a poor shot but answer yes because you believe they shot the other array intentionally....how do you justify one penalty over the lack of a penalty in the other?

[Singlestack]

*Closed in favor of the same thread in the rules Forum*