Witness cock & lock

[luvall]

I have a EAA Witness Match SA. Is it safe to carry it ala 1911 "cocked and locked"?

[bikerburgess]

Yes if the firing pin stop is still in place and functioning then it should be fine. One caution I have found that on my witnesses the safety's are easily bumped off so you will want to make sure the holster protects the safety so it stays on.

Mike

[Nealio]

IMHO "no".

First of all I wouldn't carry a 1911 cocked and locked unless it had a firing pin block (safety) on it, which many of them do. Now the firing pin safeties (blocks) on 1911's are either disengaged by the trigger or the grip safety, which should ensure the user is at least holding the weapon before it can fire.

The mechanism on the EAA/Tanfoglio that disengages the firing pin block is the sear itself. There is an arm coming off the top of the sear (you can see it when you take the slide off) that disengages the firing pin block when the sear disengages. IMHO this is a very poor design. Also the block is passive, meaning its normally off, so if the gun isn't fully in battery the firing pin block is off. It only "engages" when the sear is locked into the hammer.

The firing pin block is supposed to guard against accidental discharge if the sear disengages accidentally, and in the 1911 designs it does. However if the sear disengages on the EAA/Tanfoglio that also will possibly disengage the firing pin block, so IMHO the firing pin block on the EAA/Tanfoglio pistols give people a false sense of safety. I would not trust my life to that design.

That's my $.02.

[Gary1911A1]

I don't as I find the standard safety to be to small and mussy in feeling. I have a competition ambi safety which is bidder, but still mussy compared to a 1911 thumb safety that is properly installed.

[ck1]

IMHO "no".

First of all I wouldn't carry a 1911 cocked and locked unless it had a firing pin block (safety) on it, which many of them do. Now the firing pin safeties (blocks) on 1911's are either disengaged by the trigger or the grip safety, which should ensure the user is at least holding the weapon before it can fire.

The mechanism on the EAA/Tanfoglio that disengages the firing pin block is the sear itself. There is an arm coming off the top of the sear (you can see it when you take the slide off) that disengages the firing pin block when the sear disengages. IMHO this is a very poor design. Also the block is passive, meaning its normally off, so if the gun isn't fully in battery the firing pin block is off. It only "engages" when the sear is locked into the hammer.

The firing pin block is supposed to guard against accidental discharge if the sear disengages accidentally, and in the 1911 designs it does. However if the sear disengages on the EAA/Tanfoglio that also will possibly disengage the firing pin block, so IMHO the firing pin block on the EAA/Tanfoglio pistols give people a false sense of safety. I would not trust my life to that design.

That's my $.02.

Well said.

I'd put this spin on it: I would say that maybe the only way a Witness would be safe to carry C&L'd is if carried in a kydex holster that was formed with the safety in the "ON SAFE" position that makes it impossible for the safety to accidentally get bumped off inadvertently.

Edited September 16, 2010 by ck1

[JThompson]

For safety sake, I would only carry something DA period.....

JT

[ripplerAdder]

I have a witness 10mm match the only thing keeping me from carrying is size and now it's winter thats shouldn't be a problem. I also carry glock which has no mechanical safety does that make it any less safe? Your safety for all firearms should be between your ears not on the thumb strap.

[Skydiver]

I completely agree with rippleAdder that in the the end, with firearms, the safety should be between my ears.

But using the safety between my ears, I tend to think twice about a carrying a gun cocked and locked, where the safety lock is easy to accidentally bump off, and the quality control on some of the guns lets triggers wobble left/right out of the trigger guard. I also didn't get a comforting feeling after reading Nealio's analysis of the firing pin block disengagement design.

I imagine the chain events that needs to happen to have an AD while holstering into my inside the waistband holster: I load the gun, put one in the chamber and turn the safety on. I push shirt out of the way and move the gun into position to get the gun into the holster. Oops, I moved the gun too far back so I move the gun forward a tiny bit and accidentally bump the safety off without noticing. I've got everything lined up and slip the gun into the holster, but now is the time that trigger is sticking out to the left or right. So as the gun goes into the holster: BANG! I've now conveniently made a hole in my pants for stuff coming out of shorts to leak out off.

Don't get me wrong. I love my Witnesses! I would just make sure that if I were to carry one concealed, it would be the one with the trigger that doesn't wobble, and I'd make sure my thumb is pushing up against the safety while holstering the gun. If I were to open carry, then I would have no issues at all.

[Yeah, I know. This is advice from somebody who jumps out of perfectly good airplanes.]

[jmbaccolyte]

I've noticed that holsters with thumbsnaps (or thumbbreaks as we used to call them) have kind of gone out of style, but I liked it when I carried a 1911 cocked and locked. The thumbsnap went between the hammer & firing pin.

[david s]

IMHO "no".

First of all I wouldn't carry a 1911 cocked and locked unless it had a firing pin block (safety) on it, which many of them do. Now the firing pin safeties (blocks) on 1911's are either disengaged by the trigger or the grip safety, which should ensure the user is at least holding the weapon before it can fire.

The mechanism on the EAA/Tanfoglio that disengages the firing pin block is the sear itself. There is an arm coming off the top of the sear (you can see it when you take the slide off) that disengages the firing pin block when the sear disengages. IMHO this is a very poor design. Also the block is passive, meaning its normally off, so if the gun isn't fully in battery the firing pin block is off. It only "engages" when the sear is locked into the hammer.

The firing pin block is supposed to guard against accidental discharge if the sear disengages accidentally, and in the 1911 designs it does. However if the sear disengages on the EAA/Tanfoglio that also will possibly disengage the firing pin block, so IMHO the firing pin block on the EAA/Tanfoglio pistols give people a false sense of safety. I would not trust my life to that design.

That's my $.02.

Well said.

I'd put this spin on it: I would say that maybe the only way a Witness would be safe to carry C&L'd is if carried in a kydex holster that was formed with the safety in the "ON SAFE" position that makes it impossible for the safety to accidentally get bumped off inadvertently.

Fist Kydex holsters are set up to rest against the safety. No issues Thumb touches the safety first.

[Mo Hepworth]

The sear on the stock3 is two piece...probably a better design.

[Skydiver]

The sear on the stock3 is two piece...probably a better design.

Does it follow the pattern in the sig where there is a separate arm for disengaging the firing pin block?

[Mo Hepworth]

Yes it does!