Sandbagging Revisited

[Ron Ankeny]

I have been shooting IPSC for 14 months and in that time I have shot 33 classifiers. The biggest IPSC match that I have ever shot in had perhaps a couple of dozen shooters and it was just a local deal. I have no major match experience what so ever. As you all know, the sun even shines on a dog’s ass from time to time (or even a blind squirrel finds an acorn on occasion), so I have a few fairly decent classifiers. Right now I am at 73% Limited and 54% Limited 10. That’s B class Limited and C class Limited 10. The disparity is because I started in L10 with a single stack, then I moved to a wide body pistol and switched to Limited.

Well, I think it is time to go to a match or two. I am thinking about the Mile High and Colorado State Championships. In addition, we might be able to resurrect the Wyoming State Match. I hope to get my first 2 or 3 matches under my belt next summer. After all, I only have 4 years left to get ready for the senior division.

I could legitimately shoot in B class Limited or in C class Limited 10. Hmmm…if I shoot in C class my buddies will call me a sandbagger. If I shoot in B class I will be in for some stiff competition. I know, I’ll rip off some decent classifiers and move into the A class and shoot my first match as a relative newcomer in A class Limited.

OK, what would you do? Shoot in C with a single stack? Shoot B class with the old S_I? Grandbag it a bit and move up to A class?  What’s the fairest and most sportsmanlike solution? I am leaning toward A Class Limited and let the chips fall...

[Flexmoney]

Ron,

I think the bulk of competition will be in Limited class.  I want to be where the competition is.  The best equipment, the best shooters, the highest hit-factors.

Plus...you get to play with Sam.

[ErikW]

Yeah, you could very well be competing for the Limited 10 overall unless that division is unusually popular at that match.

Just let the chips fall where they may for classification and shoot whatever gun with which you'll be most confident.

If you are almost A in Limited, you should clean up C class in Limited 10. By the way, there's nothing to stop you from shooting your S_I in L10, just remember to count when you load mags.

B Limited (and Open, for that matter) is a very competitive class. There are a lot of good shooters making a brief stop there on their way to M class. You also get the foreign shooters who would be A-M but they don't shoot enough US matches and classifiers so they are in B class. You'll typically see B class won with match percentages far above 60-74%.

[Ron Ankeny]

Flex:

Actually, a converstion with Sam is what brought this up. He suggested that I move up from B class to A class for the major matches. On the other hand, we both know that if i shoot my STI in L10 in C class that I would probably clean house. I don't think I could do that so the question is really one of whether I should gain match experience as a B class shooter or go ahead and move up to A or even the bottom of the Master class.

[Flexmoney]

Ron,

Wow,  BoneDaddy knows all the angles.

I am not sure that I am tracking with you though.

Maybe you could list the pros and cons of competiting in each class.

[Ron Ankeny]

Flexmoney:

Yeah, I know this is hard to track. What I am asking are questions of ethics and fairplay. To be specific, I am really asking about match experience, learning curves and the USPSA classification system.

I have looked through the results of many matches and the winners in D, C, B, and A classes usually shoot scores that are way above what their class would indicate. When I looked up their USPSA number some of these shooters have scores on their most recent classifiers that are at least one class higher than the class they are in. It is also not uncommon to see shooters in major matches who have not posted a classifier in many months, presumably to avoid moving up into a new class prior to the "big match". I asked Sam if all of those guys were sandbagging scum and he told me that a person's demonstrated ability, the class they shoot in, and match performance are all tied to where they are at in their learning curve.

So here I am, moving rapidly through the classification system but with no match experience. From the perspective of ethics, should I shoot a major match in L10 C class with my hi-cap? The average of the highest 5 of the last 8 classifiers that I have shot (in L10 and L combined) with that pistol is 76%. So is it ethical for me to have a low A class average with that gear and shoot it in C class L10 just because the classification system hasn't caught up with me?

[Nik Habicht]

Ron,

Almost a year ago, I shot the IDPA Winter Nationals as a Marksman in Stock Service Pistol.  I finished 12th out of 18 competitors in that class/division.  In February I'll be going back as a Marksman in Enhanced Service Pistol. I've shot three classifiers since last year, in the best one I missed moving up to sharpshooter by less than 2 seconds, in the most recent I'm about 12 seconds away.  I haven't practiced seriously since we moved in June, I'm gearing up to start after the holidays though.  If I improve as I did last year, getting ready for this match, I should be shooting in the middle of the SS pack while competing as a Marksman.  (I had to lock into Class and Division when I mailed my application)  

All right, that was a longwinded start.  If you want to compete in L10, shoot whatever classifiers you can in L10, and just shoot the matches in whatever class you happen to be in when the match rolls around.  At any given time there are always gonna be shooters in C class who are already blowing into A class, and there are gonna be shooters who are regressing into D.  Ultimately I think you are leaning toward competing in Limited.  If so, just shoot Limited classifiers and let the scores dictate where you shoot.  We know you to be a man of integrity and I think it's admirable that you sweat being a better shooter that your current classification in L10 shows you to be, but just go shoot!

[Chriss Grube]

Ron,

I was stuck in C class all last year. The classifiers and major matches just never caught up in time. I was killing everyone in my class. The only 2 matches I took second in, Eastern lakes Sectional and Nationals were becuase I screwed up. AT the ELS I forgot a reload that cost me about 4 seconds, at Nationals I had a squib and zeroed a 135 point stage. I took TJ's class and I started kicking butt faster than the scores were going in. Some sandbag and some of us just get caught in the paperwork. In limited 10 the only way to move up is shoot it or be a class behind your highest class. Go kick some butt and get the experience, then move up with the big boys and give 'em hell. Some are going to be C forever and some are just passing through!

[Flexmoney]

Ron,

Now I am getting where you are coming from.

I had a conversation on a similar topic with DBChaffin a while back...as I was typing this he sent me an Instant Message, so we kicked the topic around some more.

We had talked in the past about the system not keeping up with dynamic shooters (those of us moving up).  Whata'ya gonna do???

Here are a couple of thoughts that Bryant sent me (which I totally agree with):

DBChaff [4:56 PM]:  i like nik's post.  just shoot.  its their system.  if you come to the big match in (insert class here) great, shoot which ever you prefer.  

DBChaff [4:56 PM]:  don't go practice classifiers to move up to A.  practice skills and if you move up right before the big match, there ya go.  no big deal

...he seems like a straight guy.  not wanting to shoot his widebody in L10 and all

DBChaff [4:57 PM]:  i mean, that is fully within the rules, but he wants to make it "fair" ...you dont find that often

So...let the chips fall where they may...but don't go down and screw the the guys that you know aren't any competition to you.  I can tell from your past post that you wouldn't get any satisfaction from that anyway.

[Shooter Grrl]

Hi Ron,

My opinion is:  shoot in Limited with your S_I - shoot at your current ability ALWAYS and quit worrying about winning, or being fair, or how to play the game!  

The only real competition in this sport is yourself - if you're on and you win, GREAT, if you're on and you don't win, GREAT - the point being YOU :-)

On a side not - you REALLY should turn in some L10 classifiers that reflect your current ability.

[midvalleyshooter]

Ron what is in your heart? Only you know:) After reading a few of your posts I suspect your choice will be to shoot in Limited in your current class.

I have not shot any regional matches in a few years. But when I was in USPSA I shot a couple of western states and golden gate championships as a C then B shooter,(a18642.) Make sure your loads make major, shoot the match one shot at a time and most of all enjoy the people and atmosphere.

By the way when I began to shoot IDPA I just made expert on the first try.

Happy Holidays,

Keith

[mike4045]

Went through something similar last year. I had gun problems when I started to classify. I got a D card for Limited. I wanted to get moved up but was told to shoot the area match in D. I did and got my C card before I got back home a week later. I don't practice classifiers to move up. I prefer to just shoot the matches. I was glad to shoot and get the big match exp.

Now I am concentrating on moving up.

Mike4045

[bonedaddy]

Ron, sometimes when I can't figure out which answer I'm the most comfortable with,  I try looking at it like this.  If I get run over by a beer truck or something and this was my last day on earth,  how would I have wanted to spend it?   Would I have rather been a smokin' hot "C" shooter or a good "A"?   Cool thing about living every day as though it's your last.  One day you'll be right.  

[Duane Thomas]

How 'bout taking your Lim-10 gun with you to matches and shooting the classifiers twice, once in Limited, once in Lim-10? In short order your classification in both divisions should even out....and you'll have some invaluable data and experience on the Limited Vs. Lim-10 guns.