Revolver Speed Loading

[kaiserb]

I have just started out in USPSA.  I decided to start with the revolver division.  I was wondering if anyone has any tips for speed loading, and developing a good loading technique.  

Brief History:  I shot my first match with a S&W 686-6  using HKS speed loaders.  I did ok but twice I reached for a speedloader only to find it had dropped it's bullets in the case, causing me to loose time by dropping it and reaching for the next one.  Additionally the gun is a 7 shot - which I found just starts arguments with the ROs about the no load limit / shoot 6 rule.  

I have since purchased a S&W 625-8 in 45 ACP (6 shot) and now have the advantage of moon clips.  I have modified the 625's trigger and springs, polished the insides and trigger front.  It has  an ok trigger pull that is smooth.  I chamfered the cylinders with a 45 deg cutter and polished and cleaned up the back of the cylinders.  The gun is ready to go, and I am trying to develop a good technique to load quickly.

Any Ideas

Thanks

[Ron Ankeny]

Darn it anyway. I gave my back issues of Front Sight away to some potential newbies. I can't recall the issue, but some months back there was an article about reloading and carrying the moon clips . The article spoke about both left and right hand techniques.

Maybe you can talk someone in your club out of their copy of the magazine. I am sure one of the other forum members will post the Issue number.

[Flexmoney]

This is equipment, not technique...but looks interesting:

http://www.azwildbunch.com/

[Intel6]

There are two basic ways of reloading a revolver.

The first way is to hit the cyl release with the thumb of your shooting hand and push the cylinder out with the first few fingers of your weak hand and grab the from of the revolver placing your thumb on the end of the ejector rod. I snap the grip of the revolver towards the ground while thumbing the ejector rod to eject the cases.  While that is happening,  use your firing hand to retrieve a speed loader and bring it to the open revolver which you have brought back into the loading position with the barrel pointing back towards the ground so gravity will help the round go in. Load the ammo in the cylinder  and move the firing hand back to the grip of the revolver. Close the cylinder with the weak hand while bringing the gun back into the firing position and once the cylinder is closed the weak hand takes the supporting firing grip.

The second way is to hit the cylinder release and pop open the cylinder with the weak hand and maintain the firing grip.  While bringing the weak hand around/under the gun you hit the ejector rod with it as it comes back in close to your body to grab the ammo. Grab the ammo with the weak hand and load. Close the cylinder with the weak hand while bringing the gun back up into firing position and reapply the supporting grip with the weak hand.

I used the first method for many years and thought it was the best way to do it.  I tried both with a timer and found them to be about the same so I stuck with what I had been doing.  One thing I noticed while using the first method was that every once in a while I would not get a good grip after the reload and it would cost me a miss or some time to readjust it.  I started practicing the second method and found that since I maintained my firing grip I never had the re-gripping problems I had with the first method. I started practicing the second method and have found that it is the better method for me.  I suggest trying both and see what works best for you.

If you use round nose ammo in your 625 you will find that the cylinder practically sucks the moon clip into the cylinder.  With hard ball I can drop the loaded moon clip above the open cylinder from a good 6 inches and it will still go right in.  Make up a few full moons of dummy ammo and practice.  

Hopefully all that made sense

Neal in AZ

[spook]

Kaiserb, ditto on what intel6 said. These are the two ways that are used. I found that the first method doesn't work well if your revolver has a rubber grip. First of all, the moonclip/cases tend to friction against the rubber, which sometimes leaves them kinda like laying on the grip. Second,  it is difficult to regrip the gun fast with a rubber grip, because if you grasp it, the friction disables you to make subtle changes in your grip. It's sticky.

For the second method, I have a few pointers. First, pratice a lot. Second, In revolver reloading, I found relaxation is a key element. Whenever I tense up during a reload, I mess it up. You want to relax especially when the new clip goes to the cylinder. Relax the weak hand with the clip, and relax the strong hand with the gun. And look the clip into the chargeholes. Try not to move the gun around to much. Also try not to waste too much time by canting the gun forward too far. I see a lot of shooters do this. They unload, and then they point the barrel 90degrees towards the ground.

Did I already mention you should practice this a lot. Don't practice so much you'll automatically reload after every shot or string, though. This might sound a bit stupid and obvious, but it's what happened to me recently during a match. I had spent so much time on my reloads, that I made two unneccesary reloads on the first stage of the match (they were fast though:))

[kaiserb]

Thanks for the pointers.  I have been using Intel6's method 1.  I was not real sure on how to do method 2 before, but with the detailed description it sounds easy.  

As for grips I have noticed what spook refered to about the grip being hard to adjust after a reload.  One of my next investments is a set of Miculek grips.  I have heard that the slickness allows for minor adjustments.  

I have not had any problems with ejection the 625 has an ejection rod long enough to fully extract the case about 1/8" beyond the back of the cylinder.   So one push on the ejection rod, and a quick release makes the moon clip and shells drop out at most angles, even with the gun slightly forward.

I recently tried some factory hard ball ammo.  I found as soon as you open the cylinder and eject, the reload moon clip jumps in.  This is especially true since I put a very slight camfer on the cylinders with a hand cutter.

I am off to make some dummy rounds and practice...

[Patrick Sweeney]

The two methods decribed are the "Traditional" (left hand ejection) and "Jerry Miculek Warp Speed."  There is a third, the "Ayoob Load."

For the Ayood Load, start like the first one, and push the latch with the firing thumb.  However, after your left hand pushes the cylinder open, use the palm of your left hand to punch the ejection rod.  (the moon clip will bounce off your belt, done properly).

Then dump the open-cylinder revolver into the palm of the left hand, with the ejection rod between two fingers.  (You're holding the cylinder and crane, not the frame.)  Point the barrel straight down and load.

Once loaded, get a firing grip, swing up and close the cylinder and commence blasting.

The advantage is the empties get out, right now.  Also, the frame of the revolver acts to keep you from over-running the cylinder getting the new rounds in.  Particularly important if you're using speedloaders and not full moon clisp.

There is more manipulation, but with the frame grip up, you're more likely to get a correct firing grip than with the traditional method.

Fastest;  Warp Speed.  Most certain: Ayoob.

[kaiserb]

I had read but forgotten about he Ayoob Method.  I will have to go back and study it along with the other methods.  Time to get out the timer....

[Ron Ankeny]

Just curious, what is considered a good time for a reload with a wheel gun now a days? Back in my old PPC days I ran around 2.5 seconds from shot to shot with a K-frame Smith and Comp loaders. There was a time when that was considered pretty darn fast. I suppose that's slow by IPSC standards.

[kaiserb]

As a lowly beginner, I can reload in about 2 seconds, using moon clips.  I am working on it and have been steadily speeding up...especially since I went from speed loaders to moon clips

[Bob Hostetter]

The real sercet to reloading a revolver regardless of which technique you use is not forcing it.

If the bullets line up prefectly when they hit the cylinder you will not have any problems no matter what you do, but as you have probably found out, they rarely do. If you try to force them in they will catch on the star or the cylinder. If you relax and let them fall into the chambers under their own weight, maybe with a slight jiggle or shake they will align much faster, and fall in.

So holding them loosely in your hand and not using a lot of pressure will result in much faster reloads. Also always use gravity to help. Muzzle up to dump, muzzle straight down to load.

I just started practicing for the ICORE match, so I had to relearn all of this stuff myself..................

[benos]

I'm with and followed Intel6's evolution. I found that keeping my shooting grip while loading was definitely beneficial in terms of consistency. But, the Ayoob technique is new to an old dog like myself, so I'd be interested to hear others comments/reviews...

be

[Intel6]

I also would be interested in hearing more about the Ayoob method.  

Thanks Brian for agreeing with my comments.  I was a stubborn mule when a few fellow revolver shooters tried to get me to try the "new way" and I still stuck with my old way of doing it.  I then started realizing that I was hurting myself with the re-gripping issues so I finally got out the timer, set up some steel and really gave them both a workout.  It didn't take long for the "re-gripping" thing to come up.  It just wasn't as evident until I started doing lots of runs using each method and keeping track.  That was when I really saw how my consistency was much better with the second method.  

The biggest thing here is that you need to get out with a timer and decide which is best for you.  

I noticed Patrick Sweeny said  the second method was called the "Jerry Miculek Warp Speed" method.  Did he develope that method?  I certainly could be wrong but doesn't Jerry still use the "Traditional" method? Just wondering how it became know as that as it is the first time I have heard it called that.

Neal Wegner

Sierra Vista, AZ

[InTheBlack]

Seems to me that the Warp and Ayoob method both put a lot of strain on the crane.  Something which I don't particularly want to get bent!  And the Warp seems to have the disadvantage of not having the cylinder held still, so it might rotate out of alignment when trying to get those shells in.  And if you are using the common "twist to release" speed loader, it wont work at all since the whole cylinder is likely to spin.  Are the reloads located on the strong or weak side for the Warp?

[Intel6]

I suppose the bent crane could be a problem but I have been shooting revolvers for many years and have never bent any of mine.  I would think that the ICORE guys like Jerry M and Vic P would have discovered this as a problem long ago if it was one as they really put their revolvers to the test.

As far as the cylinder being free to rotate, see the comments by Bob H above.  We are mainly talking about using moonclips here.  Anyone using HKS speed loaders probably needs more work in other areas of their shooting as they are seriuosly handicapping themselves.

Neal in AZ

[spook]

Ron, Jerry reloads in about 1.4 seconds. Now that is about as fast as a revo reload can get. My fastest reload so far has been under 2 seconds, but not much. I think somewhere arond 1.8/1.9. That is using the traditional method. The trick for me is to open the cylinder and kinda like simultaneously use my thumb to operate the rod. This really speeds things up. Some people use the palm of their hand to operate the rod (no jokes please ), but the danger here is that you try to knock the rounds out too hard and thereby use too much force and motion. Second, it hurts the thinner skin in the palm of your hand.

As far as cylinder spin goes, once you opened up the cylinder, you can use your index finger to hold it in place (at least, that is if you hase E.T. fingers like I do, otherwise you would have to shift your grip).

[Patrick Sweeney]

We got to calling it the "JM Warp Speed" as he used it at Second Chance in the 8-Pin event.  Every time someone would come close, Jerry would go out and set a new record.  He got down to six shots, reload, two shots, all pins off the table in something in the mid 5's as I recall.

He never worried about bending the crane, and my impression after spending a bunch of time shooting and working on S&W revolvers is that the crane is a lot tougher than we give it credit for.

With moon clips, the free rotation of the cylinder doesn't matter.

The big advantage of the Ayoob method is that the frame is both out of the way (you don't have to reach over it, as in the traditional method) and acts as a stop to keep you from getting the speed loader past the cylinder.

It does offer a slightly better angle for re-gripping the stocks, once loading is complete.

[Duane Thomas]

It depends on what you're trying to accomplish. If pure speed is the goal, I can see how all the methods already discussed would be faster than the way I do it, which I've heard called the Gunsite method because apparently this is the way they teach a revolver reload at Gunsite Training Center. I push forward on the cylinder release with my right thumb, pop the cylinder with the middle two fingers of my off-hand. The middle fingers and thumb curl around the cylinder, holding it in the outermost position, the index finger goes over the topstrap, the little finger over the hammer. Muzzle up, make a blade with your right hand and pop the ejector rod once. Pull the gun into your belly to stablize the gun, muzzle down. Insert rounds with the right hand.

I like this better than thumbing the ejector rod because with that technique you're trying to hit a small target (ejector rod head) with a small projectile (thumb) with your least dextrous hand. It works a whole lot better to use the entire palm of your strong hand, in my experience. Also I prefer to switch the gun to my off-hand and insert the rounds with the right because the actual insertion of the rounds into the chambers is the part of the process requiring the most dexterity. With the loss of fine motor control that comes with extreme stress, for a fighting techique I want to be inserting the rounds with my most dextrous hand. Slower than the other methods - sure. More stress resistant because you're using gross motor movements and relying on your strong hand to insert the rounds - you betcha.

[benos]

One last comment - The smooth grips Miculek uses on his revolver enhances the "changing hands" method. If you're grips are tackier than smoothly sanded wood, it's more difficult to reestablish your grip (if you change hands).

be

[InTheBlack]

The "Gunsite" method as described by Duane seems to be anatomically impossible.  In order to get your fore finger "over the topstrap" and little finger "over the hammer" you must still have your middle fingers going through the frame.  This itself requires extremely long fingers.

You must have approached the gun from below, palm up.  What kind of wrist bending ability then allows you to get the muzzle down?  Do you rotate the wrist clockwise (as viewed from the elbow) 270 degrees so you palm goes from up, to pointing at yourself (at which point you slap the ejector with the right hand), to down?

I can't visualize what you mean.

[Duane Thomas]

Actually it doesn't require immensely large hands. I have medium-small hands myself and I can do it with ease. Yes, you come up from underneath the gun. The middle two fingers index on one side of the cylinder, the thumb on the other, the index finger and little finger are flagged high. It doesn't really require any wrist movement to pop the cylinder and get your fingers through the frame because you're not really moving your hand, you're moving the gun, 1/4 turn clockwise. You wind up with the gun basically held in your fist. Then just hold your arm straight, elbow at a 45-degree angle, the hand is going to be straight like you were throwing a punch, no wrist flexion at all. Then hit the ejector rod. The gun is somewhere around belt level when that happens, right close to the spare ammo.

[kaiserb]

I would like to thank everyone for all their advice.  I will work on the various methods in the field this weekend.  I will let you know next week what worked , and what didn't .  

[kaiserb]

In the Black,

I am currently using the method you described.  Although my finger length has never been an issue (I have long fingers).  I have found that the index and pinky do not fold over the top strap or the hammer the merely act as a stop to keep your hand from going through the area where the cylinder is.  One comment about this method is you will burn the **&*&(^ out of your middle finger if you go to slow and it rests on the forcing cone too long.  I left a dougnut shaped burn on the side of my finger using this method with my 357.  Additionally this method is pretty much a must while using twist type speedloader (HKS), as your middle and ring finger hold the cylinder out and prevent it from turning.

You can find some pretty good pictures of this method in the book "Combat Handgunning"

(Edited by kaiserb at 4:33 pm on May 28, 2002)